Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

[Zyobot]

Well, then the Holocaust would have to immediately become put off the table. Still, once word gets out that Jews in Nazi-occupied Poland are being confined in disease-filled ghettos and that German Jews can't even marry or have sex with gentiles, I would certainly expect Nazi Germany to become an international pariah.

What would Hitler do about that, do you think? For one, there's the option of delaying or slowing down the extermination process that he and his cronies took so many pains to hide IOTL, though I also fear there's potential for him to lose it early on and hurry it up as fast as possible, in no small part due to the shock of the ISOT.

There's also the recently roused giant on the other side of the Atlantic, which Germany has already declared war on. And somehow, I doubt Roosevelt will be okay letting that slide, much less letting the Reich run wild in a Europe woefully ill-prepared for German aggression.

 

[WolfBear]

What would Hitler do about that, do you think? For one, there's the option of delaying or slowing down the extermination process that he and his cronies took so many pains to hide IOTL, though I also fear there's potential for him to lose it early on and hurry it up as fast as possible, in no small part due to the shock of the ISOT.

There's also the recently roused giant on the other side of the Atlantic, which Germany has already declared war on. And somehow, I doubt Roosevelt will be okay letting that slide, much less letting the Reich run wild in a Europe woefully ill-prepared for German aggression.

If Hitler attempts to implement the Holocaust anyway, then I would expect a Pan-European coalition would organize to militarily stop him, including even Tsarist Russia, whose own behavior towards the Jews would look extremely mild in comparison to what Hitler would be doing and who could thus try portraying itself as a savior of the Jews like the Soviet Union did in World War II in real life.

 

[WolfBear]

It would be an interesting question as to just how well a 1914 Pan-European coalition could fight against 1942 Nazi Germany--though they will undoubtedly get as much aid as possible from the 1942 US and likely eventually a lot of US troops as well.

 

[Zyobot]

If Hitler attempts to implement the Holocaust anyway, then I would expect a Pan-European coalition would organize to militarily stop him, including even Tsarist Russia, whose own behavior towards the Jews would look extremely mild in comparison to what Hitler would be doing and who could thus try portraying itself as a savior of the Jews like the Soviet Union did in World War II in real life.

Don't forget the US!

(Especially considering that whatever Pan-European coalition forms to crush Germany will need all the Lend-Lease it can get, which only the Americans can provide.)

 

[Skallagrim]

What the people from 1914 think about Hitler's policies is meaningless. He has 28 years worth of technological advantage on them. Granted, it's not quite as dramatic as some ISOTs we've discussed, but it's still a major factor.

FDR will have to act quickly. Japan is no longer a threat, so he has to go 100% on defeating the Nazis, and pronto.

 

[WolfBear]

What the people from 1914 think about Hitler's policies is meaningless. He has 28 years worth of technological advantage on them. Granted, it's not quite as dramatic as some ISOTs we've discussed, but it's still a major factor.

FDR will have to act quickly. Japan is no longer a threat, so he has to go 100% on defeating the Nazis, and pronto.

Completely agreed. Though of course there would also be the question of what would happen to the Nazi-occupied territories afterwards. Tsarist Russia won't realistically be able to get Poland back, for instance. The Poles will fight to the death rather than allow that, after all.

 

[Zyobot]

What the people from 1914 think about Hitler's policies is meaningless. He has 28 years worth of technological advantage on them. Granted, it's not quite as dramatic as some ISOTs we've discussed, but it's still a major factor.

FDR will have to act quickly. Japan is no longer a threat, so he has to go 100% on defeating the Nazis, and pronto.

Well, even though the bodies will (unfortunately) pile up way faster in the short term, he can at least reserve the bomb for Germany now.

In the meantime, it'll be vital to secure Lend-Lease with the downtimers and start shipping. I don't know whether continental Europe can hold out long enough to make use of it—at least without American goods falling into German hands, anyway—but hopefully, it'll make all the difference in the world for Great Britain (and maybe also Tsarist Russia).

 

[WolfBear]

Well, even though the bodies will (unfortunately) pile up way faster in the short term, he can at least reserve the bomb for Germany now.

In the meantime, it'll be vital to secure Lend-Lease with the downtimers and start shipping. I don't know whether continental Europe can hold out long enough to make use of it—at least without American goods falling into German hands, anyway—but hopefully, it'll make all the difference in the world for Great Britain (and maybe also Tsarist Russia).

What happens to France with this ISOT? Does northern France move from 1942 to 1914 while southern France remains in 1914, or what? Nazi Germany only occupied southern France in late 1942, after all, so southern France should not be Nazi in this TL if the ISOT will be for January 1, 1942. And will the entire 1914 French military get magically transported to southern France along with their entire logistical structure and infrastructure?

 

[Skallagrim]

Completely agreed. Though of course there would also be the question of what would happen to the Nazi-occupied territories afterwards. Tsarist Russia won't realistically be able to get Poland back, for instance. The Poles will fight to the death rather than allow that, after all.

America will dictate the terms of the peace, no doubt. Theodore Roosevelt spoke of a big stick. Franklin Roosevelt will get to put that into practice. Once the Nazis are crushed, the American century dawns.

Well, even though the bodies will (unfortunately) pile up way faster in the short term, he can at least reserve the bomb for Germany now.

In the meantime, it'll be vital to secure Lend-Lease with the downtimers and start shipping. I don't know whether continental Europe can hold out long enough to make use of it (at least without American goods falling into German hands, anyway), but hopefully, at least Great Britain could benefit from it.

The scenario allows for a metric shit-ton of awesome little events.

Winston is First Lord of the Admiralty when this all goes down, for instance. Imagine a TL like this, seen from his perspective. He's a huge fan of America to begin with, and he was worried about Germany even before the Great War (having met Wilhelm II, which left a decidely negative impression). Now, Germany is replaced with this most nightmarish spectre one could imagine, and it looks set to conquer the world.

And then America shows up to defend Europe. Churchill wouldn't just feel vindicated, he'd idolise FDR.

Now imagine FDR going all lend-lease to the max, churning out warships to just hand over to Britain. And the first one is named the Churchill. At first, Winston thinks it's named after his father, and he can't figure out why...

 

[Zyobot]

What happens to France with this ISOT? Does northern France move from 1942 to 1914 while southern France remains in 1914, or what? Nazi Germany only occupied southern France in late 1942, after all, so southern France should not be Nazi in this TL if the ISOT will be for January 1, 1942. And will the entire 1914 French military get magically transported to southern France along with their entire logistical structure and infrastructure?

Sure, that works. Northern France is a Western European area under German control, so it qualifies as Reich territory admissible for the ISOT.

America will dictate the terms of the peace, no doubt. Theodore Roosevelt spoke of a big stick. Franklin Roosevelt will get to put that into practice. Once the Nazis are crushed, the American century dawns.

The scenario allows for a metric shit-ton of awesome little events.

Winston is First Lord of the Admiralty when this all goes down, for instance. Imagine a TL like this, seen from his perspective. He's a huge fan of America to begin with, and he was worried about Germany even before the Great War (having met Wilhelm II, which left a decidely negative impression). Now, Germany is replaced with this most nightmarish spectre one could imagine, and it looks set to conquer the world.

And then America shows up to defend Europe. Churchill wouldn't just feel vindicated, he'd idolise FDR.

Now imagine FDR going all lend-lease to the max, churning out warships to just hand over to Britain. And the first one is named the Churchill. At first, Winston thinks it's named after his father, and he can't figure out why...

Sounds cool to me, too!

As you've said, it'll be clear the US will reign supreme very soon. But as soon as the bomb drops on Berlin, well...

 

[WolfBear]

Sure, that works. Northern France is a Western European area under German control, so it qualifies as Reich territory admissible for the ISOT.



Sounds cool to me, too!

As you've said, it'll be clear the US will reign supreme very soon. But as soon as the bomb drops on Berlin, well...

And I would presume that the Nazis would easily have the ability to overrun the rest of France, right? Though the US will immediately send as many of its own troops as possible to Russia, I would presume. Perhaps to Britain as well. Nukes would be a vital game-changer here but you'd also need to get into close proximity to a lot of German troops in order for them to get nuked and suffer severely massive casualties as a result of this.

'AHC: Have Ukraine west of Kiev (either including or excluding Kiev itself) still gain independence from Russia but not Ukraine east of Kiev. The PoD is January 1, 1914 or later. And the CPs can't win WWI.'

 

[Zyobot]

And I would presume that the Nazis would easily have the ability to overrun the rest of France, right? Though the US will immediately send as many of its own troops as possible to Russia, I would presume. Perhaps to Britain as well. Nukes would be a vital game-changer here but you'd also need to get into close proximity to a lot of German troops in order for them to get nuked and suffer severely massive casualties as a result of this.

Unfortunately, yes.

Of course, I'd also think that nuking Berlin itself would not only decapitate the Nazi leadership, but also represent a massive symbolic blow of destroying the Reich's capital and send a terrifying message on that basis, regardless of how many of their forces are concentrated within (or sufficiently close to) the blast radius. But yeah, so long as we're going big, you certainly have a point there.

Sending troops alongside tons of food and munitions is no surprise, as well as lots of technicians and other "advisory" experts to teach the British, Russians, and other downtimer allies how to make the most of their new toys and trinkets. Not to mention how the flood of American goods and presence of so many of its personnel will remind everyone else of where they stand relative to the US (and will likely remain well after the war has ended, to boot). Hopefully, they'll heed uptimer advice, by which I mean Great Britain having a change of heart when it comes to its empire or Tsarist Russia voluntarily liberalizing. Well, after offing Koba and other would-be-prominent Bolsheviks first, of course.

(Yes, I know Nicholas II was a bullheaded absolutist IOTL, but one wonders if his faith would move him in the right direction if he interprets America's arrival and aid as an Act of God...)

 

[WolfBear]

Unfortunately, yes.

Of course, I'd also think that nuking Berlin itself would not only decapitate the Nazi leadership, but also represent a massive symbolic blow of destroying the Reich's capital and send a terrifying message on that basis, regardless of how many of their forces are concentrated within (or sufficiently close to) the blast radius. But yeah, so long as we're going big, you certainly have a point there.

Sending troops alongside tons of food and munitions is no surprise, as well as lots of technicians and other "advisory" experts to teach the British, Russians, and other downtimer allies how to make the most of their new toys and trinkets. Not to mention how the flood of American goods and presence of so many of its personnel will remind everyone else of where they stand relative to the US (and will likely remain well after the war has ended, to boot). Hopefully, they'll heed uptimer advice, by which I mean Great Britain having a change of heart when it comes to its empire or Tsarist Russia voluntarily liberalizing. Well, after offing Koba and other would-be-prominent Bolsheviks first, of course.

(Yes, I know Nicholas II was a bullheaded absolutist IOTL, but one wonders if his faith would move him in the right direction if he interprets America's arrival and aid as an Act of God...)

Excellent analysis!

Also, off-topic, but:

'AHC: Have the ISIS Caliphate Survive Indefinitely'

 

[Zyobot]

Excellent analysis!

Thank you!

'AHC: Have the ISIS Caliphate Survive Indefinitely'

As my fellow Gen Z'ers like to say: "Oof..."

 

[WolfBear]

Thank you.



As my fellow Gen Z'ers like to say: "Oof..."

Well, a surviving ISIS Caliphate would no doubt provide a lot of ammo for "Islamophobes" in the West. I wonder if they would try allying with North Korea, though that would be kind of hard to do without a coastline, which they are extraordinarily unlikely to ever actually get.

I wonder if ISIS would treat COVID-19 as a sign of the impending Apocalypse ... or something like that!

 

[WolfBear]

Unfortunately not, AH established itself as the place for alternate history long ago. Fortunately pre 1900 and post 1900 forums are open to non registered people, but there hasn't been a really interesting timline for some time now.

Can you please elaborate on this? How exactly can you post on AH.com if you're not registered?

Also:

'AHC: Have Eastern Europe (some kind of a Judeophilic Russia and/or some other Eastern European country/countries) become a major hub for Jewish immigration similar to what both the US and Israel became in real life'

 

[Captain X]

What if the officer of the watch on the SS Californian had made the decision to wake their Marconi operator and had him turn his equipment back on to establish contact with the "queer" mystery ship they saw on the horizon and discovered that the Titanic was in distress some 15 miles from them? Would they have even been able to make steam and make their way through the ice pack to them in time to actually make a difference? From what I've read, they found out about it at about 4:30 AM and it took until after 8 AM for them to make it to the scene, though part of this is they undoubtedly knew the ship had gone down hours ago and that Carpathia was already engaged in rescue operations.

 

[Zyobot]

'Soviet Pol Pot Equivalent'.

Which is to say, a Soviet dictator at least as murderous and willfully self-destructive as Pol Pot. Personally, I'd say that Joe Stalin is the most obvious candidate, but considering that his OTL counterpart didn't shoot people for wearing glasses or wipe out around a fourth of the Soviet people in four years, I'm willing to discuss others.

Spoiler: A rather over-the-top example of what I'm looking for...

I once had an ASB story idea where, on the eve of World War II, a mysterious event known as "The Maddening" corrupts the Allies into becoming just as bad as Nazi Germany. Naturally, this "corruption" extended to Soviet Russia, too, with Stalin's paranoia shooting through the roof and his bloodthirstiness amplified to truly Hitlerian levels.

The highlights of his rule include carrying out an early Doctors' Plot, unleashing more Holodomors that completely destroy the ethnic republics, erecting "People's Guillotines" everywhere that are used non-stop, and quadrupling down on blood purges designed to whittle away the adult population and raise future generations who only know Stalin. The survivors, meanwhile, are forced through a Cultural Revolution-style erasure of Old Russia and a total militarization of Soviet society, with children raised in Sparta-inspired "youth education centers" in which they're regularly beaten, brainwashed, and culled into becoming soldiers in a "Final Revolution" to destroy capitalism forever. The result is the USSR going from a brutal, relatively isolated mega-Gulag to the bastard spawn of a Red Sparta, North Korea, and 1984's Oceania, its people giddy for a worldwide nuclear war with the West as soon as the "fascist menace" has been crushed and obliterated completely.

 

[PsihoKekec]

Can you please elaborate on this? How exactly can you post on AH.com if you're not registered?

It doesn't mean you can post, but that you can read them. Other subforums there require registration to be read.

 

[Zyobot]

'Richard Nixon Gets A Landslide Victory In 1968'.

(No, you can't change it so that Nixon's the incumbent four years early or what have you...)