mwkillkenny84

Well-known member
Just imagined how it could happen if Hague's military coup still happened in this post-war EA. And how torn Sheridan would be, much more than in show's case, where he could easily turn against cartoon villain fascist figure.


The problem is that said coup, like Clark's following one, were born from the military curbstomp plus threat of annihilation the Earth Alliance suffered in canon (plus the supposed alien powers allied to Earth being either unwilling or unable to meaningfully help Humanity) at the hands of the Minbari... oh, and Mars trying to secede to get away from the incoming devastation too.

A scenario that killed the moderates in battle and sow the seeds of xenophobia and authoritarianism around.

Here? Here the scenario is completely different, so said military coup is unlikely to happen (Clark's, on the other hand, could happen: the man cares only for his personal power, he would find another justification for wanting more regardless of the changed timeline).
 

Spartan303

In Captain America we Trust!
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Osaul
The problem is that said coup, like Clark's following one, were born from the military curbstomp plus threat of annihilation the Earth Alliance suffered in canon (plus the supposed alien powers allied to Earth being either unwilling or unable to meaningfully help Humanity) at the hands of the Minbari... oh, and Mars trying to secede to get away from the incoming devastation too.

A scenario that killed the moderates in battle and sow the seeds of xenophobia and authoritarianism around.

Here? Here the scenario is completely different, so said military coup is unlikely to happen (Clark's, on the other hand, could happen: the man cares only for his personal power, he would find another justification for wanting more regardless of the changed timeline).


I honestly don't feel any sympathy for Mars. They straight up tried to sellout the rest of the Alliance and Earth in particular. They quite rightly got their shit kicked in as an appropriate response for that post war.

Now, what Clarke did was inexcusable, and really the bombing of Civilian targets in your own nation alone should have gotten him removed poste haste.
 

Vlad_Dracul89

Well-known member
A scenario that killed the moderates in battle and sow the seeds of xenophobia and authoritarianism around.

Here? Here the scenario is completely different, so said military coup is unlikely to happen (Clark's, on the other hand, could happen: the man cares only for his personal power, he would find another justification for wanting more regardless of the changed timeline).

I am afraid there will be still appeasement movement, like it happened after Great War to victorious states, trying to stop and limit military expansion and Human colonization, since damage and loss of lives was still great. There was always great resistance to conscription too.
There are more than one examples when defeated and crushed enemy flourished after war as one of the greatest economic powers (Japan), while victorious power fell into decay and it's power disintegrated (Britain).

On the other hand, considerable portion of people want now transform Humanity into more militarily oriented society to battle cold, unforgiving space full of ancient races and ancient horrors, a threats to homeworld. No longer just brave pioneers, but crusaders. Generals having a word in colonization and foreign policy.
So civil war doesnt have to be democrats vs. night watch, but Earth Force vs. Senate.



EDIT:
This is the human race destined to replace the Vorlons? The poor man's Minbari? Really? I know the Vorlons are sanctimonious retards when you really read into their motivations and agenda, so they stumbled into some tasty thematic compatibility there, but really?

It would be funnily ironic if some Minbari kids from war were raised by Human parents, then Minbari found out and protested, but none of those teens would want to go 'home', since they'd see their people as crazily religious weirdos.

Like you had normal life, but then suddenly was moved to Amish village, to live exactly like them. :D

2 EDIT:

I honestly don't feel any sympathy for Mars. They straight up tried to sellout the rest of the Alliance and Earth in particular. They quite rightly got their shit kicked in as an appropriate response for that post war.

We don't have to rely just for colonies for expansion. In fact, is there any good reason why not to spread Human culture into the Galaxy? I say Earth Alliance should consider to create own Protectorates from pre-space flight alien planets, who would be, naturally, protected during any massive interstellar conflicts. Especially if Earth will vote into office some 21st century's Theodore Roosevelt who will offer them defense treaties, technology and other Human goods in exchange for raw materials, military bases and trade monopoly.
 
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Culsu

Agent of the Central Plasma
Founder
Huh, just saw Delenn's actress is dead. Died on January 20, completely flew past me...
Yeah, Mira Furlann's death didn't create any big waves, not even on SB.com. Shows how long in the past B5 (and in her case also Lost) are by now. We are old, it seems. ;):eek:

As for the Earth Alliance's expansion, one thing we have to keep in mind is that there are more than one viable strategy. LC/Harlock has already given many of the colonies a greater population than they canonically had, if I'm not mistaken, but even then what colonies Earth has are practically tiny specks compared to Sol itself. Earth could build up its existing colonies basically for centuries and still have room to grow in them for millenia to come. Building tall rather than wide. Now the nature of hyperspace gates and hyperspace travel makes distance somewhat wobbly, but there is no great strategic reason or pressing economic or demografic need to expand further. All that does is increase the logistical burden on Earthforce by requiring far flung military presences whose cost far outweighs their usefulness. The Alliance would be better served by coming up with a viable system of administration and government for its colonies that nips stuff like Mars' rebellion right in the bud.
 

Vlad_Dracul89

Well-known member
There is certainly question how well Earth can deal with growing military-political commitments and how well it's population can accept any massive growth of Earth Force.
Just because United States in 1920s could built greatest navy in the world, no one would be able to compete with, doesn't mean they wanted to. That's why there was Washington Naval Treaty and limits on battleship numbers.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
I know you said B5 itself would probably still be low rent compared to the rest of what Earth Force would be building.

But even low rent after that windfall would be impressive no?

maxresdefault.jpg


Something like this maybe?
 

Vlad_Dracul89

Well-known member
I was okay with this old thing, when dude simply merged B4 and B5. More militarily focused Earth Force can make it more a battlestation actually being able to move like Explorer-class ship, even if very slowly, like engine-equipped B4.

In fact, it could be equipped with massive railguns to defend itself from largest battleships. What's better place for commerce and diplomacy than overkill-level fortress in neutral zone? You know, like Switzerland? :D

It would also explain why it still uses rotating for gravity: easier maintenance than massive artificial gravity generators, which would also took too much juice from weapon systems and sensory array.

 

walkir

Member
Yeah, the only reason B5 is so weakly armed and armored can be politics... otherwise, as anyone but a Vorlon, a Shadow or maybe a Minbari, I wouldn't want to take my handful starships against a 8km-long station that has no need for any drives, doesn't care about mass impacting maneuverability and can just use all the room for weapons and power. Even while keeping that O'Neill-style habitat.
 

BF110C4

Well-known member
Yeah, the only reason B5 is so weakly armed and armored can be politics... otherwise, as anyone but a Vorlon, a Shadow or maybe a Minbari, I wouldn't want to take my handful starships against a 8km-long station that has no need for any drives, doesn't care about mass impacting maneuverability and can just use all the room for weapons and power. Even while keeping that O'Neill-style habitat.
To be fair embassies are expected to be unarmed except for the bare minimum for self-defense. In exchange the host country, planet or species should contribute with a neutral(ish) defense force sizeable enough to discourage reasonable oppponents like pirates or small navies who got no ambassador inside.

In other words I would have actually expected Babylon 5 to have only point defense guns and armed shuttles for utility purposes but to have an EA cruiser and escorts with maybe some attached LONAW ships patrolling the inmediate area.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
To be fair embassies are expected to be unarmed except for the bare minimum for self-defense. In exchange the host country, planet or species should contribute with a neutral(ish) defense force sizeable enough to discourage reasonable oppponents like pirates or small navies who got no ambassador inside.

In other words I would have actually expected Babylon 5 to have only point defense guns and armed shuttles for utility purposes but to have an EA cruiser and escorts with maybe some attached LONAW ships patrolling the inmediate area.

I could actually see the Centauri doing most of the patrolling now. Earth just solved a thousand year old problem for them and likely lined their coffers even more as Minbar's economy is gonna be fucked harder than it was in the original timeline by the war (IIRC the Alliance put up a hard enough fight their economy went into a recession or something). And the Fanbros are really the only dudes outside of their borders that they've had any positive trade relations with at all and with House Refa and co buying as much Minbari wreckage and anti-Stealth tech as it can find...I can see them throwing more money and more resources into B5 than they did originally.

Especially if they can leverage that for a tech exchange.
 

Ghostking 666

Active member
and with House Refa and co buying as much Minbari wreckage and anti-Stealth tech as it can find...
The Centauri already have the jammer beating sensors, they traded artificial gravity tech to earth for it. And as for wreckage... while they might be able to get ahold of some stuff, all the battles were either in Earth space or Minbari space. Meaning that either the Minbari are recovering it, or it got recovered by Earth, the Narn, the Dilgar and the Drazi(especially the incredibly valuable intact pieces).

Considering that most of that number are either aggressive towards the Centauri or outright hate the Centauri and the Centauri government and military are probably quietly panicking over a future where the three biggest threats on the Centauri border actually outtech the Centauri Republic(granted, it would probably take decades or even a century for them to reach that point, but it would be inevitable barring unforeseen circumstances).

Understandably, this is going to result in the Centauri going into quite the arms race in order to keep from being left so far in the dust that their industrial advantage over their rivals alone becomes no longer sufficient protection, either by throwing funding at their own native development or by trading the new sensors(as well as anything else they might want) to various interested* League races in exchange for choice bits of technology(for their stage of technology, the Centauri are pretty "jack of all trades", where as many of their League rivals are specialists that outdo the Centauri in some areas even if they fall behind in others), probably both.

*Literally any race that doesn't have the sensors are going to be interested in getting them, especially now that Minbari technology will in the future no longer be restricted to just the Minbari. Without those sensors, the moment Earth, Narn, Drazi and/or Dilgar manages to reverse engineer and copy Minbari jammer technology will be the moment all their navies become obsolete and that's understandably something everyone is going to want to avoid. The Centauri could make quite the killing there if they manage to beat the others to selling first(and by others I mean probably the Narn because the Dilgar already have most of what the League can offer and Earth and the Drazi probably wouldn't be all that interested in the first place).
 

BF110C4

Well-known member
Plus the LONAW is going to start their own arms race, the Dilgar are still feared amongst the galaxy and now they have reached something approaching friendship with humanity, so despite any reasurances the Earth Government gives about not tolerating Dilgar expansionism anyone near the Dilgar Empire is going to work hard to build up their defenses even more.
 

Vlad_Dracul89

Well-known member
That makes sense, if you count this station as a single building. But effectively, it's larger entity, a city-state if you will.

So making Babylon 5 a fortified festung (if you guys are familiar with the term) absolutely makes sense. City-states in medieval Germany and Italy were full of both diplomacy and trade.

In fact, a handful of such places, if multiple of them existed, and they became independent, could form some kind of interstellar trade league of their own.
 

walkir

Member
"Do I want to fight something whose primary reactor outmasses my fleet" seems an easy question...

"Fortified Festung" is kinda redundant, though, it's not like German kept using the same word for the princess tower and the military home like English "castle".
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
The Centauri already have the jammer beating sensors, they traded artificial gravity tech to earth for it. And as for wreckage... while they might be able to get ahold of some stuff, all the battles were either in Earth space or Minbari space. Meaning that either the Minbari are recovering it, or it got recovered by Earth, the Narn, the Dilgar and the Drazi(especially the incredibly valuable intact pieces).

I think it would be easy for a few noble houses to bribe corrupt Earthers to get some shit. Though I honestly think they'll put their energies into a tech buying spree.

The other thing is as I've said before, the only species outside of the Vorlons and IIRC the Yulu with any prolonged contact and positive contact with the Minbari are the Centauri and I could see Turhan who fancied himself a peacemaker maybe being persuaded to both give Minbari recovery loans and enter into a sort of mutual defense pact. Would it humiliate the warrior caste? Yes, would Bramner be dumb enough to refuse it knowing the only thing that kept the Centauri from being able to just roll them was their stealth tech? And that they've been in a nearly thousand year long competition with the Minbari dreaming of outdoing them? He might do it..it also puts the Minbari in a place where they can ensure nothing like this happens again by being more involved.

Turhan might request say..a relic from the Shadow War, or like a ship seven hundred years out of date with their main warships as part of the payment.

Truth be told, I can imagine they'd be more interested in power generation and AG tech from the Minbari than overtly their weaponry. Centauri guns were some of the best on the show, only the shadows and Vorlons consistently fucked shit up easier than the fanbros did.


Considering that most of that number are either aggressive towards the Centauri or outright hate the Centauri and the Centauri government and military are probably quietly panicking over a future where the three biggest threats on the Centauri border actually outtech the Centauri Republic(granted, it would probably take decades or even a century for them to reach that point, but it would be inevitable barring unforeseen circumstances).

I wonder if that means Londo arrives at B5 as financially and politically powerful as he was during the Shadow War? As his house and house Jado and Refa will be competing like crazy for an edge in this new war and diplomacy game.

And the B5 posting might be far more prestigious?

Understandably, this is going to result in the Centauri going into quite the arms race in order to keep from being left so far in the dust that their industrial advantage over their rivals alone becomes no longer sufficient protection, either by throwing funding at their own native development or by trading the new sensors(as well as anything else they might want) to various interested* League races in exchange for choice bits of technology(for their stage of technology, the Centauri are pretty "jack of all trades", where as many of their League rivals are specialists that outdo the Centauri in some areas even if they fall behind in others), probably both.

One which they should honestly win with the exception of the Dilgar and Earth being their equals or better. JMS really shat all over the Centauri after going to great lengths to give them a backstory that all but assured they'd end up as the big dogs without Vorlon's simping for the boneheads.
 

Ghostking 666

Active member
Plus the LONAW is going to start their own arms race, the Dilgar are still feared amongst the galaxy and now they have reached something approaching friendship with humanity, so despite any reasurances the Earth Government gives about not tolerating Dilgar expansionism anyone near the Dilgar Empire is going to work hard to build up their defenses even more.
The LONAW will try but unfortunately will have several problems doing so. First, they are still recovering from the Dilgar War. Second, they are the League of None Aligned Worlds, not the League of Worlds(no matter how much the Abbai wish otherwise). That's a fact that had always screwed over their internal tech trading. Even when they want what each other has, the "bucket of crabs" mentality B5 races have, always prevented them from actually sharing despite being nominal "allies". The Drazi having the new sensors will give them something that everyone(other then the Yolu) will want(because once the Jammer technology gets replicated, every ship that doesn't have the new sensors will instantly be rendered obsolete), but that strongly depends on whether the Drazi would actually want anything the other League races have(only thing some League races have that the Minbari don't do better are shields(both gravitic and Hyach Harmonic shields) but the Drazi are infamous for favoring attack over defense).

A third problem is that unlike the Dilgar, none of the League races have a Middle Born race(the Drakh) helping them combine their stuff( after the Shadow War, the Abbai and Brakiri governments actually did collaborate in a new ship design, only for the resulting Brivoki class advanced warship to have so many problems getting it to work that it ended up hilariously overbudget).

"Do I want to fight something whose primary reactor outmasses my fleet" seems an easy question...

"Fortified Festung" is kinda redundant, though, it's not like German kept using the same word for the princess tower and the military home like English "castle".
That depends. Is it stationary? Is it unsupported? Can I fire, evade and counterfire better then it can shoot my ships? A space station, no matter how big or well armed is often an easy target to any determined attacker with the right amount of resources and planning.

I think it would be easy for a few noble houses to bribe corrupt Earthers to get some shit.
There's a difference between getting something "off the back of a truck" and getting examples of actual Minbari warship technology that's being held in secure locations. Remember this is Bablyon 5, everyone has experience foiling other people's attempts to get their own advanced technology, that's why different races can have such divergent techbases rather then everything homogenizing over time.

The other thing is as I've said before, the only species outside of the Vorlons and IIRC the Yulu with any prolonged contact and positive contact with the Minbari are the Centauri and I could see Turhan who fancied himself a peacemaker maybe being persuaded to both give Minbari recovery loans and enter into a sort of mutual defense pact. Would it humiliate the warrior caste? Yes, would Bramner be dumb enough to refuse it knowing the only thing that kept the Centauri from being able to just roll them was their stealth tech? And that they've been in a nearly thousand year long competition with the Minbari dreaming of outdoing them? He might do it..it also puts the Minbari in a place where they can ensure nothing like this happens again by being more involved.

Turhan might request say..a relic from the Shadow War, or like a ship seven hundred years out of date with their main warships as part of the payment.

Truth be told, I can imagine they'd be more interested in power generation and AG tech from the Minbari than overtly their weaponry. Centauri guns were some of the best on the show, only the shadows and Vorlons consistently fucked shit up easier than the fanbros did.
The Minbari are down, they aren't out. If the Centauri ask for to much, the Minbari will shut their doors to them and there's very little the Centauri could do that wouldn't start a war with the Minbari(and be likely to drag Earth and Earth's allies into it, after all, per the treaty with Minbar, the Minbari have to teach Earth about their technology and the EA aren't going to like someone threatening that arrangement).

Earth objecting is probably the biggest reason why the Centauri don't simply eliminate the Narn, Drazi and Dilgar before the three get too advanced(well that and Turhan's pacifism).

One which they should honestly win with the exception of the Dilgar and Earth being their equals or better. JMS really shat all over the Centauri after going to great lengths to give them a backstory that all but assured they'd end up as the big dogs without Vorlon's simping for the boneheads.
Not really? Minbari technology is very advanced by Younger Races standards. The Minbari were more advanced then the Centauri over a thousand years ago(specifically, around where the Vree are now considering that the Vree's technology comes from them lucking out and finding a bunch of Valen War era Minbari derelicts to study and reverse engineer). It wouldprobably take the Drazi, Narn and possibly Dilgar several decades to a century to fully digest what they got, which isn't enough time for the Centauri to close the coming gap even with tech from the League, never mind reverse it. The Centauri's goal would be to try and close the future gap enough that their industrial advantage can successfully handle the rest.
 

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