A couple of Tactical Marine Squad vs Brotherhood of Steel (Fallout 4)

[Tyzuris]

Assume a couple of Tactical Marine Squads are deployed in the Commonwealth wasteland to take out the Brotherhood of Steel. Assume the Tactical Marine Squads operate out of a Thunderhawk in which they have also gear to equip themselves with things like jump packs if needed. The squad also has support from four heavy weapon carrying Devastators + a Techmarine + Apothecary + a single Librarian + three scouts.

Can this force of Space Marines take out the force the Brotherhood of Steel had brought to Commonwealth wasteland?

 

[Scooby Doo]

Yes the lore force of BOS members there is like a platoon or two in power armor and Bolters are basically perfectly designed to OHK Paladins.

Only hope is if the BOS get Liberty Prime running or the Sole Survivor leads an Ambush at the expense of the bulk of their forces.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

And between the heavy weapons available, the Thunderhawk, and all the ugly CCWs (think Thunderhammer), Liberty Prime will likely get destroyed too.

 

[PsihoKekec]

Can Fallout weapons penetrate SM armor, can turbo plasma rifle melt through? And even it they can, marines have advantage of their enhanced senses, greater speed, stamina, strength... Thus they can accurately engage BoS forces at long range and keep the engagement at ranges where BoS can't fight back effectively, but even at close range they still possess massive edge over their opponents.

In short, SM crush their opposition.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Can Fallout weapons penetrate SM armor, can turbo plasma rifle melt through? And even it they can, marines have advantage of their enhanced senses, greater speed, stamina, strength... Thus they can accurately engage BoS forces at long range and keep the engagement at ranges where BoS can't fight back effectively, but even at close range they still possess massive edge over their opponents.

In short, SM crush their opposition.

I would put Fallout Laser Weapons by feats on par with 40k Hot-Shot Weapons in terms of damage output but far safer and better ammo capacity.


I can see Spacemarine Armor taking up to a mag to take down unless they score headshots. (Which case it's a one shot)


It isn't Fallout Weapons vs Spacemarine Armor that's the main issue since one Paladin with a Gatling Laser could solve the issue.


Its the speed disadvantage, Spacemarines will shoot first and their Bolters will knock out or kill in one shot.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

It isn't Fallout Weapons vs Spacemarine Armor that's the main issue since one Paladin with a Gatling Laser could solve the issue.

I'm not sure. The materials used in SM Armor is vastly beyond what gets used in Fallout...at least from what I can see. In addition, anything that penetrates still has to deal with the built in organic/cybernetic augmentations that every SM has. Then you have to overcome all the organic and cybernetic redundancies built into a SM.

I'd equate the Gatling Laser to a Guard Multi-laser.

Its the speed disadvantage, Spacemarines will shoot first and their Bolters will knock out or kill in one shot.

Not wrong here either. You can also add in that any close-combat situation is pretty much a foregone conclusion in favor of the Astartes.

 

[Scooby Doo]

I'm not sure. The materials used in SM Armor is vastly beyond what gets used in Fallout...at least from what I can see. In addition, anything that penetrates still has to deal with the built in organic/cybernetic augmentations that every SM has. Then you have to overcome all the organic and cybernetic redundancies built into a SM.

I'd equate the Gatling Laser to a Guard Multi-laser.

Ehhhh in terms of resistance to ballistics and physical projectiles certainly but in terms of Energy Projection protection the Fallout Power armors are just as good if not better than Soacemarine armor.

Single shot from basic Fallout lasers do this canonically on a direct hit. (Not exaggerated)

Note Danse surviving entire volleys of laser blasts before the rocket goes off and cremates the androids into ash, despite this his armor is pretty much in good condition.


In terms of Physicals they can tank ragdolling from a Deathclaw which flips cars like toys

Space Marines will still win but Fallout Power armor would be really good mass produced armor, basically Carapace Armor on Steroids.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Canonical T-51B power armor can take around 2500 joules of energy (presumably from AP munitions, maybe tungsten core?) so .50BMG let alone a single bolter shot will pierce straight through.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Canonical T-51B power armor can take around 2500 joules of energy (presumably from AP munitions, maybe tungsten core?) so .50BMG let alone a single bolter shot will pierce straight through.

False.

Its paint job can take OVER 2500 joules. We don't know the upper limits, Bolter is still gonna one shot but the 2.5k joule limit statement is a false myth that got spread around because someone didn't read the actual excerpt carefully

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

False.

Its paint job can take OVER 2500 joules. We don't know the upper limits, Bolter is still gonna one shot but the 2.5k joule limit statement is a false myth that got spread around because someone didn't read the actual excerpt carefully

Afraid that's not how the wording is in the original Fallout game. Its possible there's aramid layers beneath the shell, more stuff to absorb projectiles, but the actual armor-part of the armor is 2500 joules of energy. Fallout Power armor has been laughably flanderized over the years.

The T-51b powered infantry armor is designed with the latest passive defense features for both civilian and military disturbances. The back-mounted TX-28 MicroFusion Pack generates 60,000 Watts to power the HiFlo hydraulic systems built into the frame of the suit. Made of the latest poly-laminate composite, the T-51b shell is lightweight and capable of absorbing over 2,500 Joules of kinetic impact. The 10 micron silver ablative coating can reflect laser and radiation emissions without damage to the composite subsurface.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Afraid that's not how the wording is in the original Fallout game. Its possible there's aramid layers beneath the shell, more stuff to absorb projectiles, but the actual armor-part of the armor is 2500 joules of energy. Fallout Power armor has been laughably flanderized over the years.

It does say shell which would be the paint irc, Fallout 4 retconned the suits to now have layers instead of one single suit of armor.

Key words being the modular plates

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

It does say shell which would be the paint irc, Fallout 4 retconned the suits to now have layers instead of one single suit of armor.

Key words being the modular plates

It specifically says "poly-laminate composite shell"
The paint job is just normal simple army paint, with a layer of energy-weapon resistant silver coating beneath that.

 

[Scooby Doo]

It specifically says "poly-laminate composite shell"
The paint job is just normal simple army paint, with a layer of energy-weapon resistant silver coating beneath that.

Let's take that at face value.

They're still saying that a 10 micron thin coating on the shell is capable of providing protection against laser emissions from Fallout Weapons. Which we know even civilian grade lasers in the setting are capable of outputting enough energy to pierce armor.



Which is ridiculous you're talking about a layer of paint 0.01 Millimeter's thick that's intended to completely reflect multi megajoules worth of energy without losing integrity.

Their significantly thicker shells would definitely be able to withstand a not insignificant amount of force

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

Let's take that at face value.

They're still saying that a 10 micron thin coating on the shell is capable of providing protection against laser emissions from Fallout Weapons. Which we know even civilian grade lasers in the setting are capable of outputting enough energy to pierce armor.



Which is ridiculous you're talking about a layer of paint 0.01 Millimeter's thick that's intended to completely reflect multi megajoules worth of energy without losing integrity.

Their significantly thicker shells would definitely be able to withstand a not insignificant amount of force

I mean it IS an advertisement style of writing so it could be exaggerating some things.
Regardless FO power armor (at least 51B) is vulnerable to AP heavy calibers.

 

[Scooby Doo]

I mean it IS an advertisement style of writing so it could be exaggerating some things.
Regardless FO power armor (at least 51B) is vulnerable to AP heavy calibers.

In gameplay, FO is pretty notorious on the inconsistency of how well the armor protects against varying high caliber rounds.

Fallout 3 has a rookie in T-45 solo the Pitt's Raiders and was considered a Juggernaut despite access to 7.62/.308 ammunition in vast quantities.

Previously retconned material stated that FO Power Armor could allow a single user to solo a village/town of Chinese Soldiers who would at least be platoon strength with 7.62 and above ammunition which would be impossible to avoid getting tagged.

New Vegas states that NCR Troopers were able to slaughter half a chapter but on the other hand the courier states even the lense of T-51 power armor is bulletproof.


So honestly we have no idea how good they are against ballistics but the implications is supposed to be VERY good other wise the Chinese need not invent a Gauss Rifle to deal with the America Power Armor just use a good old .308 Hunting Rifle.


One thing is inarguable tho, Fallout Power armors resistance to energy projectiles is incredibly ridiculous that pretty much no energy weapon short of a lascannon is putting a user down.

But they're fighting Marines who use ballistics so bad match up for the Brotherhood lol

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

In gameplay, FO is pretty notorious on the inconsistency of how well the armor protects against varying high caliber rounds.

Fallout 3 has a rookie in T-45 solo the Pitt's Raiders and was considered a Juggernaut despite access to 7.62/.308 ammunition in vast quantities.

Previously retconned material stated that FO Power Armor could allow a single user to solo a village/town of Chinese Soldiers who would at least be platoon strength with 7.62 and above ammunition which would be impossible to avoid getting tagged.

New Vegas states that NCR Troopers were able to slaughter half a chapter but on the other hand the courier states even the lense of T-51 power armor is bulletproof.


So honestly we have no idea how good they are against ballistics but the implications is supposed to be VERY good other wise the Chinese need not invent a Gauss Rifle to deal with the America Power Armor just use a good old .308 Hunting Rifle.


One thing is inarguable tho, Fallout Power armors resistance to energy projectiles is incredibly ridiculous that pretty much no energy weapon short of a lascannon is putting a user down.

But they're fighting Marines who use ballistics so bad match up for the Brotherhood lol

It should be noted that tesla armor and more advanced forms of power armor were built after power armor production, both of which have better energy resistance. Perhaps T-51B's energy resistance was deemed insufficient?

Additionally even if it can handle 'only' above 2500 joules of energy to the composite shell, that might be talking about state of the art ballistic penetrators of the time, AP munitions, and so on.

It would make the users immune to Chinese Assault Rifles even at point blank, only with visor-shots potentially being dangerous because armor-glass shatters under multiple hits.

Even against .308 AP rounds, the energy drops surprisingly quickly where guaranteed penetrations would be quite suicidal against a minigun/fat-man armed power armor trooper stomping around.

You probably don't want to get that close, hence the scoped gauss weapons being built by the Chinese. In any case the European nations built Gauss Rifles so its possible everyone just wanted more dakka.

 

[Husky_Khan]

If Power Armor could be shredded by Anti-Material Rifles and heavy machine guns, Power Armor would be of somewha negligible use against Chinese tanks and infantry despite the improvements in carrying capacity and resiliency against smaller caliber weapons because they tend to be pretty yuge (at least in every Fallout besides 3 and New Vegas). It had a damage threshold of 12 in Fallout 1 & 2 plus the 40% resistance which is why you'd get those awesome random encounters where three Brotherhood of Steel Paladins would be taking on like twenty or thirty raiders armed with everything ranging from pistols to assault rifles and it'd still be a gloriously one sided massacre, with Raiders getting crits of like 0 to 3 hit points.

If a .50BMG was all that was needed to bring down a Paladin, the NCR wouldn't of needed to outnumber the Brotherhood of Steel 20 to 1. Their Veteran Desert Rangers have Anti-Material Rifles up the wazoo and probably range on the Brotherhood of Steel as well.

In the Great War the first deployments of the T-51 Power Armor Suits was reportedly "chewing through Chinese infantry and tanks like paper" to the point that campaigns in Mainland China, the Yangtze Campaign, and the decade long static conflict in China both saw the Chinese retreating due to decisive American advanced and almost certainly due to the introduction of the T-51 Power Armor troops.

[quite=General Brock]Alpha Team just shipped out the first batch of T-51B suits to the front in China. Reports are already coming in that the suits are performing better than expected, chewing through enemy tanks and armor like they were paper.[/quote]

Pretty much echoing the non-canon Fallout Bible:

The first suit of Power Armor is deployed in Alaska. While lacking the full mobility of future versions, this Power Armor is incredibly effective against Chinese tanks and infantry. Its ability to carry heavy ordinance becomes key in various localized conflicts, and it has the power to destroy entire towns without endangering the wearer. China rushes to create its own versions, but they are many years behind the United States.

Power Armor is meant to have bullets bounce off of it. If the Chinese troops are surrendering at the sight of Power Armored troops wielding 5mm Miniguns, there must be a reason why one of them wasn't like "Oh I'll use a hunting rifle to dome the guy with his giant ass minigun." And giant tin soldiers would be chewed up by an AFV's machine guns or autocannons if it wasn't resilient to anything beyond a .308 rifle.

 

[Marduk]

From all my experience with Fallout games, it may be story-mechanics dissonance, but .50 AP is definitely something power armor users do not want to be facetanking. The problem is that despite that, it hurts PA infantry far less than it would hurt a typical infantryman in lesser armor (as in terminally), in addition to such perks as helmet mounted sensors, incredible resistance to the biggest infantry killer on modern battlefields, explosive blast waves and fragmentation, and ability for one soldier to carry what is normally a crew served weapon plus its ammo and a sidearm or two. Short of advanced energy weapons and things normally used against light armored vehicles, good luck killing them, while each of them has the firepower of a heavy weapon team, the massive battlefield advantage would come out of the totality of such factors, rather than some kind of insane immunity to any weapons.

Now that advantage doesn't apply to fighting Astartes, who have the same, and are a product of thousands of years of warfare where this is the norm. Their standard guns are in fact light anti armor weapons, conveniently enough, as they often fight opponents with similar kinds of armor.

And that's i think is the big question. If the Brotherhood can figure out what are they dealing with and scrounge enough of suitable weapons to arm a big portion of their forces (plasma rifle, fat man, gauss rifle etc) they might have a fighting chance. If not, they will lose their numbers advantage before they start to adapt properly and lose badly.
It also depends on which chapter they would be fighting. Some of them are more specialized in guerilla and small unit combat than others, if it's something like Raven Guard or something like Space Wolves who are the "meant to be good at fighting other Astartes and equivalents" ones, they don't have good chances.

Also the Thunderhawk is going to be a huge pain for them to take down, they had enough issues with Enclave Vertibirds until they copied them and now everyone struggles to deal with theirs, but a Thunderhawk, this thing is on a whole another level, it's not proverbially a flying tank, it is in fact about as tough as 40k's tanks, and has even more firepower than those.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Honestly the Institute would probably be better suited to fighting the Astartes here. They can wear them down with attrition and their expendability makes their fragility only a minor issue.


I feel like Brotherhood would win 9/10/if Prime is active in this scenario.

Him no selling Verti Bird gunships and punching through buildings makes me think he can no sell pretty much anything short of the Thunderhawk.

 

[Agent23]

Canonical T-51B power armor can take around 2500 joules of energy (presumably from AP munitions, maybe tungsten core?) so .50BMG let alone a single bolter shot will pierce straight through.

That is supposed to be the same as one shot from a lasrifle aka a flashlight.

There is also one important thing about FO weapons we should not forget, they have likely deteriorated from hundreds of years of abuse, incompetent maintenance and environment damage, and a lot of the weapons themselves as well as the ammo have been jurry-rigged into functioning in one way or another.

I remember quite a few homebrew ammo types in FO:NV, for instance.

You also need to factor in skill, which most wastelanders don't have.

It does say shell which would be the paint irc, Fallout 4 retconned the suits to now have layers instead of one single suit of armor.

Key words being the modular plates

FO4, aka let us make using Powered Armor cumbersome and annoying again, or for the first time.


The controls were meh and hunting for cores was frigging annoying.