A civilizational space being split into two parts: Additional realistic cases of this?

WolfBear

Well-known member
Which additional realistic cases of a civilizational space being split into two parts can you think of? In real life, we had:

-The division of the territories of Roman Christendom from 565 AD into those territories that became Muslim and those that remained Christian in 750
-The collapse of the Soviet Union, with Ukraine eventually aligning with the West, in contrast to both Russia and Belarus, who have both remained parts of the Russian world
-The division of Europe by the Iron Curtain during the Cold War
-The split of Korea during the Cold War and beyond
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
To my mind, none of these actually qualify as "divided civilisational spaces". This of course depends on what you mean by "split" in this context. An actual example of a "split/divided civilisational space" would be Catholic-Orthodox and later Catholic-Protestant-Orthodox: fundamental divisions within the civilisational space that is Christendom. Arguably, the division of roughly the same civilisational pace into the Capitalist-Communist dichotomy might also qualify-- although I think that one is actually much less fundamental. More of a surface-level thing, that has no real staying power.

-The division of the territories of Roman Christendom from 565 AD into those territories that became Muslim and those that remained Christian in 750
This describes part of a civilisation being conquered by another. The civilisation that is thus partially conquered in a very comprehensive manner isn't split. It shrinks. Syria, for instance, is simply no longer a part of Christendom. It is part of Islam.


-The collapse of the Soviet Union, with Ukraine eventually aligning with the West, in contrast to both Russia and Belarus, who have both remained parts of the Russian world
The Russian sphere as it exists now is just the remnant of the historical aberration that was the USSR. The rest of the traditional "Eastern Orthodox" sphere has already been (re-)absorbed into what is (presently) called by the secular moniker "the West". The Catholic-Orthodox split has mostly ceased to be politically relevant in most cases (as has the Catholic-Protestant one). Russia is committing national suicide as we speak, so that's actually over, too. When the end is finalised, Western Russia will be re-absorbed into "the West", and the more Eastern regions of Russia (historically the "mongoloid" parts) will be grabbed or at least thoroughly vassalised by China, per its long-standing ambitions.

So what division? We are actually in the process of a somewhat messy re-union of Christendom. And the USSR was only ever a minor stumbling block in that regard. The more relevant historical trend is that Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox nations are already re-grouping under one umbrella.


-The division of Europe by the Iron Curtain during the Cold War
Barely relevant, as I mentioned. A temporary political division, with far fewer consequences than, say, the Hunderd Years' War. (And that didn't in any fundamental way split Christendom, either.)


-The split of Korea during the Cold War and beyond
I'm not convinced Korea constitutes a civilisational space. It's historically an appendage of the Sinic civilisation, really. Sure, it's independent now, but that's like saying Britain has split from Western civilisation because of Brexit. Obviously a non-starter.



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A real example of an ATL "divided civilisational space" would be if large portions of Germanic Europe suck with Arianism. Or if the Chalcedonian view had been prevented, and Christianity had become divided between the radical Antiochene and Alexandrine views. Or if either the Monophysites or Miaphysites had maintained power based in Alexandria against the Chalcedonians, thus creating a separate North African Christianity. Or if the Nestorians had prevailed in the East, thus creating a much larger (but also more internally divided) Christendom.

For comparison: I personally feel that if some form of Gnosticism had prevailed in parts of OTL Christendom, this would effectively see those regions break away and become a truly separate civilisation-- so to my mind, that wouldn't qualify, either.

But on the other hand, the Sunni-Shi'a split certainly qualifies.

We may note that religious divisions tend to be fundamental enough to create a long-enduring division (unlike most purely materialistic disagreements, which tend to be fairly fleeting), but that the remaining religious commonalities also prevent the "divided" civilisation from completely breaking in two. So religion seems to be the main factor producing "divided civilisations", I would say.
 
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Earl

Well-known member
I'm not convinced Korea constitutes a civilisational space. It's historically an appendage of the Sinic civilisation, really. Sure, it's independent now, but that's like saying Britain has split from Western civilisation because of Brexit. Obviously nonsense.
I’d argue though the effects of the North Korean regime with its insane cult nature and insanely diffrent conditions have lead to a vast chasm between north and south which may be impossible to bridge.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
I’d argue though the effects of the North Korean regime with its insane cult nature and insanely diffrent conditions have lead to a vast chasm between north and south which may be impossible to bridge.
This would suggest that North Korea has turned into a wholly separate mini-civilisation. It still wouldn't lead it to qualify as part of a civilisation divided against itself. Because for that to exist, the differences must be fundamental, but by definition not so terrible that they completely end all meaningful bonds. Because then it's no longer a divided civilisation... but two separate civilisations.

Not that this is applicable here anyway, in my view, because I think that when North Korea topples, its inhabitants will be absorbed back into the surrounding civilisation's embrace-- which they'll eagerly embrace, because once the regime is gone, any alternative will be welcomed.

The surrounding civilisation, by the way, is not "Korean civilisation" -- in my view -- but the Sinic civilisation of which Korea is still a peripheral part. At least, that is very much how it seems to me.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
@Skallagrim Would you view the Orthodox-Catholic and Catholic-Protestant splits as well as the more temporary Western Schism as being examples of the Christian civilizational space being split? As you said, it's gradually being undone right now for all intents and purposes, but it still lasted for centuries, other than the Western Schism, which only lasted for several decades.


1280px-Western_schism_1378-1417.svg.png
 

Cherico

Well-known member
I'm honestly kind of hoping that America European split so we don't get draggy into another conflict
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
I'm honestly kind of hoping that America European split so we don't get draggy into another conflict

lol. A bigger Western bloc is a better Western bloc.

There are two things that I dislike about the GOP the most: It being anti-immigration and it being anti-Ukraine.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
@Skallagrim Would you view the Orthodox-Catholic and Catholic-Protestant splits (...) as being examples of the Christian civilizational space being split? As you said, it's gradually being undone right now for all intents and purposes, but it still lasted for centuries (...)
Since I explicitly named these as archetypical examples, I would obviously view them as examples, yes.


(...) as well as the more temporary Western Schism (...) which only lasted for several decades.
Answering your own question there. Obviously a "no".


I'm honestly kind of hoping that America European split so we don't get draggy into another conflict
The opportunity for that has passed, and I think it may have passed as early as the late 19th century, when the USA committed to imperialism. Had that turned out otherwise, America could have turned towards greater isolationism. Then it would have stood apart from the great European wars of the 20th century, which would as a consequence have seen (in all likelihood) the German power ascendant. As such, Europe and America would have each turned onto separate roads, and the ultimate unification of European civilisation would obviously have left America out altogether.

I, too, see the obvious appeal of this scenario. But that is by no means the course we are on.


lol. A bigger Western bloc is a better Western bloc.

There are two things that I dislike about the GOP the most: It being anti-immigration and it being anti-Ukraine.
To make a thing bigger -- to expand it -- can easily dilute the essence of that thing. If you, for instance, expand Europe to include Turkey and North Africa and then Arabia... you are not creating a "bigger, better Western bloc". You are creating a "Eurabia" of sorts, which loses much of the very nature that makes it "Western" in the first place. This disproves your illogical "bigger is better" thesis.

The truth is: purity is best. Seek out the traits that form the greatness that you admire. Foster those traits. Actively select for those traits. And weed out the opposing, negative traits. And before you start going on about genetics again: that's not what I mean. I'm talking about culture. If you create a "bigger" West that is so diluted that the characteristic cultural traits that led the West to be great and successful are no longer dominant, then the result is not "better". The result is fucking dead.

Your obsession with immigration is ludicrous. Mass immigration (from a foreign civilisation) is the last thing a sane person should ever want, because it is inherently destabilising. If you want a thriving civilisation, you want to avoid mass immigration from outside its bounds. If you don't understand this, you're too ill-informed to have a credible opinion on the topic.

Regarding Ukraine, you're pretty obviously right, though. Letting Russia break what teeth it has left on a target that's not you is a cheap way to greatly speed up the death of Russia. Fighting to the very last Ukrainian is geo-politically the smart move. People who think otherwise are about as imbecilic as people who think mass immigration is a good idea.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
To make a thing bigger -- to expand it -- can easily dilute the essence of that thing. If you, for instance, expand Europe to include Turkey and North Africa and then Arabia... you are not creating a "bigger, better Western bloc". You are creating a "Eurabia" of sorts, which loses much of the very nature that makes it "Western" in the first place. This disproves your illogical "bigger is better" thesis.

Obviously the newcomers have to be fairly assimilable. Else, as you said, things get worse, not better. The West can greatly augment its population with open borders but that would destroy the West rather than benefit it.

The truth is: purity is best. Seek out the traits that form the greatness that you admire. Foster those traits. Actively select for those traits. And weed out the opposing, negative traits. And before you start going on about genetics again: that's not what I mean. I'm talking about culture. If you create a "bigger" West that is so diluted that the characteristic cultural traits that led the West to be great and successful are no longer dominant, then the result is not "better". The result is fucking dead.

Your obsession with immigration is ludicrous. Mass immigration (from a foreign civilisation) is the last thing a sane person should ever want, because it is inherently destabilising. If you want a thriving civilisation, you want to avoid mass immigration from outside its bounds. If you don't understand this, you're too ill-informed to have a credible opinion on the topic.

Regarding Ukraine, you're pretty obviously right, though. Letting Russia break what teeth it has left on a target that's not you is a cheap way to greatly speed up the death of Russia. Fighting to the very last Ukrainian is geo-politically the smart move. People who think otherwise are about as imbecilic as people who think mass immigration is a good idea.

FWIW, I don't think that all immigration is good. Rather, I think that assimilable immigration is good. Similar to what, say, the US had in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Somalis in the West, in contrast, often don't make good immigrants. Muslims and Africans in general often don't, unless perhaps they're elites or middle-class.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
What about the Muslim civilizational space being split between Sunnis and Shi'ites? That would also qualify for this, right?
 

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