A Catachan Battalion vs Na'vi at Avatar 1

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sotnik
Oh I didn't even assume Jake Sully (or any Human collaborators) were part of the whole thing. I just figured the Catachans made a very poor first impression so the Navi decided to resist them fully. And the Catachans only sent a battalion because they put this guy in Command of the Operation.

bvsYG3m.jpg
 

JagerIV

Well-known member
Oh I didn't even assume Jake Sully (or any Human collaborators) were part of the whole thing. I just figured the Catachans made a very poor first impression so the Navi decided to resist them fully. And the Catachans only sent a battalion because they put this guy in Command of the Operation.

bvsYG3m.jpg

Hm, without the human collaborators though you don't really have the dual issues that make this such a difficult problem for the Humans: organized, large scale resistance, and distant targets. Rallying all the Na'vi generates a force large enough to threaten the local garrison, but the mobilization and staging areas were deep in the jungle, requiring distant deployments from base to meaningfully attack.

Like George Washington. Provides something for the colonies to mobilize a large uprising around capable of threatening the British garrison. Boston, for example, was not tenable to hold. However, the Americans had a lot of space to retreat into, so British attempts to destroy the American forces required deep attacks to reach them, putting they're armies at immense risk, suffering terrible disasters like Saratoga, where I believe the British Empire lost 10% of its standing army to a large group of militia in the woods.

Without that organized resistance with a theory of how to win, the Katachans can potentially runs this much more as a bug hunt scalping Na'vi: do a monthly expedition, find village of 400 or so Navi, scalp them, and go home. If you piss off a big tribe of 3,000 or so, retreat to the fort, wait them out for several months, then go back to scalping and raiding.

So, that kills something like 5,000 Navi a year at relatively low risk, without having to greatly expand the paramiter and risk being overrun en mass with deep riskly expedition. 10-20 years you've killed off all the Na'vi in the local area, if they hadn't left already.

Still would require at least some steady stream of replacements, and expanding past the 200-300 km range from base would get increasingly dangerous.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sotnik
Hm, without the human collaborators though you don't really have the dual issues that make this such a difficult problem for the Humans: organized, large scale resistance, and distant targets. Rallying all the Na'vi generates a force large enough to threaten the local garrison, but the mobilization and staging areas were deep in the jungle, requiring distant deployments from base to meaningfully attack.

Like George Washington. Provides something for the colonies to mobilize a large uprising around capable of threatening the British garrison. Boston, for example, was not tenable to hold. However, the Americans had a lot of space to retreat into, so British attempts to destroy the American forces required deep attacks to reach them, putting they're armies at immense risk, suffering terrible disasters like Saratoga, where I believe the British Empire lost 10% of its standing army to a large group of militia in the woods.

Without that organized resistance with a theory of how to win, the Katachans can potentially runs this much more as a bug hunt scalping Na'vi: do a monthly expedition, find village of 400 or so Navi, scalp them, and go home. If you piss off a big tribe of 3,000 or so, retreat to the fort, wait them out for several months, then go back to scalping and raiding.

So, that kills something like 5,000 Navi a year at relatively low risk, without having to greatly expand the paramiter and risk being overrun en mass with deep riskly expedition. 10-20 years you've killed off all the Na'vi in the local area, if they hadn't left already.

Still would require at least some steady stream of replacements, and expanding past the 200-300 km range from base would get increasingly dangerous.

Raiding a village in such a manner would likely trigger the local Navi as a whole I feel.

The only large scale violence we know of that occurred in the first Avatar was RDA forces apparently massacring a bunch of Navi which shut the school down and caused there to be a freezing in the previously peaceful relations between the Navi and Humans. After that apparently there was just skirmishing between both sides. The first real combat was taking out the Hometree and that obviously triggered the whole Clan into a war footing. But Jake Sully was able to bring in other clans as well since he was the Toruk Makto. In this case I just assumed some native born Navi was the aforementioned Toruk Makto just to make sense of the numbers and everything (and because from what I know of the Catachans, they'd probably trigger a strong response anyways).

The Omaticaya Clan (the one from the first movie) is like one collective entity. If they're going out scalping some of the local Navi, they're running afoul of the same Clan. So the Clan organization is still intact. It's not like attacking independent tribes or whatever. They are all still serving one overall Clan leadership structure.

Likewise in Avatar 2 there were reportedly a hundred villages in a coral sea archipelago but they were all part of the same Metkayina (Water) Clan structure. And while they weren't triggered into War by the RDA burning two villages and killing some animals (they didn't kill any Navi) the whole Clan was angered enough when it was revealed the RDA killed even just one of the magic whales they considered part of their Tribe.

Anyways, I am interested in the Versus Discussion where Humans are aiding the Navi because I think that would be a great asset but I am still curious as to whether the Navi could do it on their own so to speak.
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
That might be a mission the Catachans would be well suited to achieve, as high risk as a jungle infiltration may be. Target the real critical point of Navi restistance: Jake. Killing the tree, its not super clear what that necessary accomplishes, materially. Might just mobilize all of Pandora to be even more aggressive. Kill Jake, and the Navi resistance seems likely to fracture and loses its main ability to counter humans through logic and foreknowledge, and not through super expensive trial and error.
If we assume that Jake was also a 'Catachan' to make the plot the same, then Jake is gonna die. They'll assume something has taken over his mind and consider him a clear and present danger.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
Well, a battalion is an extremely small deployment. Especially for the area in question. Lets get an idea of the territory in question: lots of the Catatans having trouble is based on this being a large area: lets say the target is one hour helicopter flight: about 200 km. That's 10 days on foot if making reasonably good time. About 1 km a day road building like the trip to the home tree gives you roughly the three months that it took mining operations to reach.

So, it might be reasonable to guess a lot of the Navi stuff is at least 50-100 km out, and the magic tree may be 200-300 km out, about a full 1-2 hour flight.

But, for gorilla war terms, lets look at how much territory were talking about. A semi circle 200 km out from a base on the ocean gives you about 60,000 square km. This is about 30% of the land area of South Vietnam, which had closer to a million men involved. So, to reach South Vietnam troop densities, your talking about 300,000 men for an area this large, not 800.

But, as @Agent23 hunter gathers have lower population densities than peasant farmers. 1 per km was my quick research number. This suggests though over the distances being discussed that there may be roughly 60,000 Navi in the area discussed, especially since a lot of it is fertile area, not marginal wasteland no one else wants as in modern hunter gatherers.

Now, some of evidence from the film suggest there may be a good gap of few Navi living in very close proximity to the base. This however is a disadvantage to the Humans because it puts more of the Navi at further distances from base, pushing for longer logistical tail.

Still, 50,000 Navi in the area makes sense, suggesting roughly 2,500 prime warrior aged (roughly if 50 year lifespan, equal spread between ages, so 20% are in the 20-30 range, or 5,000 and assuming mostly male half of that for roughly 2,500).

This lines up with the force Jake's able to mobilize quickly: light horse forces can do 30-50 km in a day burst, or 20-30 sustained. Mongols could allegedly manage 100-200 km in a day, though I don't know if that was a burst or sustained, regular or a particularly notable campaign. Flight is also going to make the Navi way more mobility than standard natives too: flight might make a 200-300 km day journey quite doable, especially with friendly bases on the other side. RDA meanwhile would be very limited by the need to keep operations within round trip flight distance, else it requires setting up forward bases which they don't really have the manpower for. Catachans would have a similar need, and be similarly lacking in manpower.

So, this lines up roughly with the movie, which honestly suprises me a bit: those in the immediate area might be roughly 50,000 Navi, who can mobilize 2-3k Warriors, and within the close reachable, say 400 km as the, whaterver those flying things fly, your talking about 500,000 km, and thus maybe half a million Navi. Now, were talking about an area roughly the size of Ukraine, but, well, hunter gathers are fairly mobile people, traveling light, able to live on the land, etcetera. That's still only 25,000 Navi warriors, with maybe a manpower pool of 100,000. Which would definitely eventually overwelm the RDA/

If they can draw from a Europe wide area, with maybe a population of 4 million, you have roughly 200,000, though drawing on that wide is reaching logistical limits, especailly at once: a distant tribe might be able to migrate a warrior band of 30 flyingers who spend a couple days in transit, fight, and leave, as long as local food sources held out.

You still have the problem though of a divisional (5-10 thousand) at least task being carried out by a battalion.
Lots of holes here.

For starters, you can not mobilize every able bodied fighter even if you wanted to, since at least some will have to continue hunting and foraging for the tribe, and guard the tribal grounds against beasts or opportunistic enemies.

For deathworlders accustomed to fighting Orks and the insane Fauna of Catachan I do not think that 25 000 spear wielding hunter gatherers will be a problem.

Notice how I mentioned Rorke's Drift?

By all accounts a mess where the Zulu had access to firearms and the British, with weapons that were inferior to even our modern-day stuff let alone Imperium armaments, managed to score about 20x the kills that Zulu inflicted on them?



If we assume that Jake was also a 'Catachan' to make the plot the same, then Jake is gonna die. They'll assume something has taken over his mind and consider him a clear and present danger.
There is nothing in the OP about that.

Oh shit Genestealer or heretic.

Implying that anyone form the Imperium will be OK with cloning a xeno and transferring his brain to it...
 
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JagerIV

Well-known member
Raiding a village in such a manner would likely trigger the local Navi as a whole I feel.

The only large scale violence we know of that occurred in the first Avatar was RDA forces apparently massacring a bunch of Navi which shut the school down and caused there to be a freezing in the previously peaceful relations between the Navi and Humans. After that apparently there was just skirmishing between both sides. The first real combat was taking out the Hometree and that obviously triggered the whole Clan into a war footing. But Jake Sully was able to bring in other clans as well since he was the Toruk Makto. In this case I just assumed some native born Navi was the aforementioned Toruk Makto just to make sense of the numbers and everything (and because from what I know of the Catachans, they'd probably trigger a strong response anyways).

The Omaticaya Clan (the one from the first movie) is like one collective entity. If they're going out scalping some of the local Navi, they're running afoul of the same Clan. So the Clan organization is still intact. It's not like attacking independent tribes or whatever. They are all still serving one overall Clan leadership structure.

Likewise in Avatar 2 there were reportedly a hundred villages in a coral sea archipelago but they were all part of the same Metkayina (Water) Clan structure. And while they weren't triggered into War by the RDA burning two villages and killing some animals (they didn't kill any Navi) the whole Clan was angered enough when it was revealed the RDA killed even just one of the magic whales they considered part of their Tribe.

Anyways, I am interested in the Versus Discussion where Humans are aiding the Navi because I think that would be a great asset but I am still curious as to whether the Navi could do it on their own so to speak.

I might be incorrect on the scale, but the Omaticaya clan was the pissing off a few thousand, which can be hunkered up and outlasted in a fort. Though, if the Omaticaya clan is more like the water tribe with several hundred villeges, and the hometree was just the capital or something like it, your back to a larger group coordinated over a large area.

Though, without human aid, this does get more even, because the learning process could be so much more expensive, and really stupid actions might be done. And the Na'vi might not have the numbers to pay that cost of learning.

Lets assume then Omaticaya might be that 50,000 or so Na'vi in the local area. If they don't understand human weapons, there may be an attempt to launch a mass assult on a fortified position with clear line of sights. As @Agent23 talked about with Rorke's drift, trying to take a prepared fortified possition by storm is extremely hard, and has always been so: for at least 3,000 years, its generally been preferable to take a fortified position through a 6 month siege than to storm it in a day.

But, without human knowledge they may walk into a situation where they try such an assault at a location of their choosing. Humans would know agincort, Bunker hill, or Na San hedgehog strategy. That would also be a strategy the Catachans could do as well instead of attacking the tree: march out into the jungle to look more vunerable, but to a know defensible position to bate a frontal assult that would be very costly for the Na'vi. A human who knows tactics could tell what they were trying to do, a Na'vi might not, and if the Omaticaya suffer a disasterious defeat and lose 2-3k, the Omaticaya may just move, and they are left to their own.

But, broader situation does still require expansion removing the Na'vi, not just massing on an impenetrable defensive position: for one, the mining operation requires expansion. The home tree was "the largest deposit in 200 km". So mining seems to require operations that far out. As long as the operation has to be profitable, just camping out at Hell's gate and slowly atritting the Na'vi doesn't win.

Just camping out at Hell gates might be a bit difficult too though: wiki suggest the main base is about a 12 km perimeter enclosing 9 km^2. Evenly spacing the 600 ish infantry across a wall that large is one every 20 meters. If its a long siege and you need to maintain roughly three 8 hour shifts, your down to 200 on the wall at any moment, roughly one every 60 meters.

For comparison, Rorke's drift seems to have been roughly 250 m perimiter with 150 men, or one every 2-3 meters. Catachan's have better weapons, but Na'vi are also way better equipped biologically than Zulu too. Flyer's alone are an immense problem for maintaining a perimeter: if a group of 30 flyings attack, even if 10 get in, if all your troops are manning the wall then, those warriors are free to run havok through support personnel and miners. But, if you need to keep reserves back interior as well, you probably want some defensive troops per square km, so 9 defensive groups interior.

One squad interior patrol per square km is 100 men on foot patrol. Which if you still also need a 3 shifts, means your down to 100 men on the walls. And then advance warning is good, so if you need some patrols beyond the walls to keep an eye on things, you might be down to basically 2 platoons guarding 9 km of wall.

And then if you take any casualties of course, everything gets streched thinner..
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
I might be incorrect on the scale, but the Omaticaya clan was the pissing off a few thousand, which can be hunkered up and outlasted in a fort. Though, if the Omaticaya clan is more like the water tribe with several hundred villeges, and the hometree was just the capital or something like it, your back to a larger group coordinated over a large area.

Though, without human aid, this does get more even, because the learning process could be so much more expensive, and really stupid actions might be done. And the Na'vi might not have the numbers to pay that cost of learning.

Lets assume then Omaticaya might be that 50,000 or so Na'vi in the local area. If they don't understand human weapons, there may be an attempt to launch a mass assult on a fortified position with clear line of sights. As @Agent23 talked about with Rorke's drift, trying to take a prepared fortified possition by storm is extremely hard, and has always been so: for at least 3,000 years, its generally been preferable to take a fortified position through a 6 month siege than to storm it in a day.

But, without human knowledge they may walk into a situation where they try such an assault at a location of their choosing. Humans would know agincort, Bunker hill, or Na San hedgehog strategy. That would also be a strategy the Catachans could do as well instead of attacking the tree: march out into the jungle to look more vunerable, but to a know defensible position to bate a frontal assult that would be very costly for the Na'vi. A human who knows tactics could tell what they were trying to do, a Na'vi might not, and if the Omaticaya suffer a disasterious defeat and lose 2-3k, the Omaticaya may just move, and they are left to their own.

But, broader situation does still require expansion removing the Na'vi, not just massing on an impenetrable defensive position: for one, the mining operation requires expansion. The home tree was "the largest deposit in 200 km". So mining seems to require operations that far out. As long as the operation has to be profitable, just camping out at Hell's gate and slowly atritting the Na'vi doesn't win.

Just camping out at Hell gates might be a bit difficult too though: wiki suggest the main base is about a 12 km perimeter enclosing 9 km^2. Evenly spacing the 600 ish infantry across a wall that large is one every 20 meters. If its a long siege and you need to maintain roughly three 8 hour shifts, your down to 200 on the wall at any moment, roughly one every 60 meters.

For comparison, Rorke's drift seems to have been roughly 250 m perimiter with 150 men, or one every 2-3 meters. Catachan's have better weapons, but Na'vi are also way better equipped biologically than Zulu too. Flyer's alone are an immense problem for maintaining a perimeter: if a group of 30 flyings attack, even if 10 get in, if all your troops are manning the wall then, those warriors are free to run havok through support personnel and miners. But, if you need to keep reserves back interior as well, you probably want some defensive troops per square km, so 9 defensive groups interior.

One squad interior patrol per square km is 100 men on foot patrol. Which if you still also need a 3 shifts, means your down to 100 men on the walls. And then advance warning is good, so if you need some patrols beyond the walls to keep an eye on things, you might be down to basically 2 platoons guarding 9 km of wall.

And then if you take any casualties of course, everything gets streched thinner..
You seem to be forgetting tech like pill boxes, mines, trenches and barbed wire, as well as all of the vehicles the Catachans have.
 

Agent23

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Not at all. What have I said to give you the idea I'm retarded?
Tbh a moder encampment is a lot more complex than what you describe, which is wall and guards on wall.

And things thet don't work all that well against modern adversaries, like moats, will at the least inconvenience the Cat Smurfs.

Crew mounted lascanons will be a nasty surprise to the natives.
 

ThatZenoGuy

Zealous Evolutionary Nano Organism
Going to give it to the Catachan dudes here. Their planet has small frogs which explode like poison-nukes, and feral Tyranid monsters.

I'm not even convinced the Navi arrows can penetrate flak armor, let alone carapace and canonically stronger stuff like non-Spacemarine power armor suits exist.

As OP says they only need to pacify the hometree Navi and not the whole planet (which few fictional armies could hold off forever anyways), I think they can do it.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sotnik
Flak Armor can protect from shrapnel and autogun bullets or pistols, lasguns will still cook the wearer. It has a bonus against blast damage (equivalent to Carapace Armor) but I haven't seen any consistent performance of it being able to protect even negligibly against the meter long neurotoxin laced arrows fired by giant blue smurf superhumans who can penetrate the armored canopies of mechs and gunships with their arrows.

Carapace Armor, at least in game, is just one rank above and even if it was immune to penetration, the force of the arrow was pincushioning Humans when they were struck by them, as in lifting them up and launching them backwards and pinning them to nearby trees behind them. That amount of kinetic energy would not be enjoyable to experience. The FFG games states Carapace armor is like 50% more effective then the "wet cardboard" Flak Armor. Carapace Armor can protect from the occasional heavy duty round, like a bolter or a burst from a stubber, as long as it hits the hardshell parts and not the softer joints, but I'm not sure it'll be enough to prevent an arrow from poking them. It doesn't even have to be a lethal strike due to the neurotoxins.
 

ThatZenoGuy

Zealous Evolutionary Nano Organism
Flak Armor can protect from shrapnel and autogun bullets or pistols, lasguns will still cook the wearer. It has a bonus against blast damage (equivalent to Carapace Armor) but I haven't seen any consistent performance of it being able to protect even negligibly against the meter long neurotoxin laced arrows fired by giant blue smurf superhumans who can penetrate the armored canopies of mechs and gunships with their arrows.

Carapace Armor, at least in game, is just one rank above and even if it was immune to penetration, the force of the arrow was pincushioning Humans when they were struck by them, as in lifting them up and launching them backwards and pinning them to nearby trees behind them. That amount of kinetic energy would not be enjoyable to experience. The FFG games states Carapace armor is like 50% more effective then the "wet cardboard" Flak Armor. Carapace Armor can protect from the occasional heavy duty round, like a bolter or a burst from a stubber, as long as it hits the hardshell parts and not the softer joints, but I'm not sure it'll be enough to prevent an arrow from poking them. It doesn't even have to be a lethal strike due to the neurotoxins.

That's more a bad show for the cockpits of those vehicles, than an impressive showing for the arrows. No way no how non-metal arrows are going to punch through military-grade armor glass, especially !FUTURE! armored glass from a nation of FTL-capable humans.

I bet the physical impact of such arrows wouldn't be nice to be hit by even in carapace but 40k humans are absurd and are so eugenically bred by this point that I doubt it'd hurt them seriously.

Also not even certain if the neurotoxin would work, seeing as its unlikely enough it works on normal humans, because that's not how nerve toxins work!
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sotnik
That's more a bad show for the cockpits of those vehicles, than an impressive showing for the arrows. No way no how non-metal arrows are going to punch through military-grade armor glass, especially !FUTURE! armored glass from a nation of FTL-capable humans.

I bet the physical impact of such arrows wouldn't be nice to be hit by even in carapace but 40k humans are absurd and are so eugenically bred by this point that I doubt it'd hurt them seriously.

Uhhhh ok...

Also not even certain if the neurotoxin would work, seeing as its unlikely enough it works on normal humans, because that's not how nerve toxins work!

Pretty sure Quaritch literally states how lethal the neurotoxins are to Humans in the beginning of the first movie.

But if you want to apply real world science and reason to Warhammer 40K...
 

ThatZenoGuy

Zealous Evolutionary Nano Organism
Pretty sure Quaritch literally states how lethal the neurotoxins are to Humans in the beginning of the first movie.

But if you want to apply real world science and reason to Warhammer 40K...

I seen the film, it kills humans in seconds.

But I'm pointing out how common it is in fiction to assume that's how poisons work.
 

JagerIV

Well-known member
Tbh a moder encampment is a lot more complex than what you describe, which is wall and guards on wall.

And things thet don't work all that well against modern adversaries, like moats, will at the least inconvenience the Cat Smurfs.

Crew mounted lascanons will be a nasty surprise to the natives.

This was mostly just discussing the perimeter to give a scale of the front: I'm sure given time they could upgrade beyond the orgininally existing fence, and strong points can be built up. Defending such a large base with so few is still a bit of a challenge.

I have partially re-thought the scenario a bit though. Mainly by taking the super humanness a bit more seriously.

Ground travel speed is a major limiting factor for how effective the Catachans can carry out the deep strikes necessary. However, the estimates are largely built on regular travel speed of normal armies, making it a 10-20 day trip, which the mounted and flying Navi can travel faster.

However, people can travel reasonably quick over long distances. Average run time is roughly 5 miles per hour, or 8 km. Absolute best mile time is 16 mph (25 kmph). Some can actually maintain roughly this speed over a long time: the best 10km run averages to roughly 20kph, and best marathon, the longest common race, is also in that rough 20 kph.

So, taking super humanness seriously, it may be possible for the Catachan's to sustain 10 kmh on foot when not fighting. Still makes it a 2 day trip, probably ideally a 3 day (two days rapid march, battle fresh next day). Or with a secure sleeping area, a foot patrol might plausibly manage 80 km in a day, giving a large area.

They're relative firepower advantage is also a bit better than I initially assumed: the Mechs the humans use seems to be equipped with a 30 mm cannon. Its possible that a 11 meter creature may have some level of resistance, especially with Pandora's implied "biolevel". However, that puts the mech weapons roughly in line with heavy bolters: a bit heavier, but not damatically so. Lascannons, seeming to be roughly equivalent to 100-130 mm cal range, should do much better as true anti tank weapons.

The Hellhounds and Chinera's may also have a higher level of manuverability: the jungle could be thick in some places, but other places are also thin enough that 11 mm hammerhead rhinos can wander through them, and a Chimera/hellhound is only 7 meters long. There may be some limit to following animal trails, and likely some engineering is still necesary, but the vehicles might not have to build roads all the way there as I was initially thinking.

Ogrin and Sentinels also provide more manuverability and firepower than I was initially giving credit to.
 

Agent23

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This was mostly just discussing the perimeter to give a scale of the front: I'm sure given time they could upgrade beyond the orgininally existing fence, and strong points can be built up. Defending such a large base with so few is still a bit of a challenge.

I have partially re-thought the scenario a bit though. Mainly by taking the super humanness a bit more seriously.

Ground travel speed is a major limiting factor for how effective the Catachans can carry out the deep strikes necessary. However, the estimates are largely built on regular travel speed of normal armies, making it a 10-20 day trip, which the mounted and flying Navi can travel faster.

However, people can travel reasonably quick over long distances. Average run time is roughly 5 miles per hour, or 8 km. Absolute best mile time is 16 mph (25 kmph). Some can actually maintain roughly this speed over a long time: the best 10km run averages to roughly 20kph, and best marathon, the longest common race, is also in that rough 20 kph.

So, taking super humanness seriously, it may be possible for the Catachan's to sustain 10 kmh on foot when not fighting. Still makes it a 2 day trip, probably ideally a 3 day (two days rapid march, battle fresh next day). Or with a secure sleeping area, a foot patrol might plausibly manage 80 km in a day, giving a large area.

They're relative firepower advantage is also a bit better than I initially assumed: the Mechs the humans use seems to be equipped with a 30 mm cannon. Its possible that a 11 meter creature may have some level of resistance, especially with Pandora's implied "biolevel". However, that puts the mech weapons roughly in line with heavy bolters: a bit heavier, but not damatically so. Lascannons, seeming to be roughly equivalent to 100-130 mm cal range, should do much better as true anti tank weapons.

The Hellhounds and Chinera's may also have a higher level of manuverability: the jungle could be thick in some places, but other places are also thin enough that 11 mm hammerhead rhinos can wander through them, and a Chimera/hellhound is only 7 meters long. There may be some limit to following animal trails, and likely some engineering is still necesary, but the vehicles might not have to build roads all the way there as I was initially thinking.

Ogrin and Sentinels also provide more manuverability and firepower than I was initially giving credit to.
Now, when you mention travel speeds I am starting to think of something we have all overlooked.

Namely, how much faster can you travel on a lower gravity planet/moon.

Wonder if that might have played an impact on Na'vi warmaking ability.
 

JagerIV

Well-known member
Now, when you mention travel speeds I am starting to think of something we have all overlooked.

Namely, how much faster can you travel on a lower gravity planet/moon.

Wonder if that might have played an impact on Na'vi warmaking ability.

I vaguely recall doing some math once to look at practical speeds on the moon, and I believe it ended up being "slower than Earth".

This is due to friction issues. Acceleration and breaking speeds can both be described by the following formula:

cd0a368adf0a671e9a29a581c769b6add6cd1f40

(I thought there was a way to make these more visable, but can't seem to find it).

Basically, all else equal a lower gravity world will take longer to accelerate, because the point where you spin out is higher.

Take for example a nice even 10 m/s, or 36 km/h. Earth at 9.81 m/s gravity and tires with a coefficient of 0.7, which is reasonable to my understanding, can stop in 7 meters. Meanwhile, on the moon with a 1.6 m/s speed the minimum breaking distance would be 44 meters.

Pandora has a gravity of roughly 7.8 m/s, which suggests the breaking distance is about 9 meters. So, acceleration, turning, excetera should take roughly 30% more distance, and likely be a bit slower due to the lower gravity.

Atmosphere is also thicker, so air resistance is higher too. So, conventional ground travel is doubly hard. Remember Pandora is partially designed to make big flying creatures more plausible.
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
I vaguely recall doing some math once to look at practical speeds on the moon, and I believe it ended up being "slower than Earth".

This is due to friction issues. Acceleration and breaking speeds can both be described by the following formula:

cd0a368adf0a671e9a29a581c769b6add6cd1f40

(I thought there was a way to make these more visable, but can't seem to find it).

Basically, all else equal a lower gravity world will take longer to accelerate, because the point where you spin out is higher.

Take for example a nice even 10 m/s, or 36 km/h. Earth at 9.81 m/s gravity and tires with a coefficient of 0.7, which is reasonable to my understanding, can stop in 7 meters. Meanwhile, on the moon with a 1.6 m/s speed the minimum breaking distance would be 44 meters.

Pandora has a gravity of roughly 7.8 m/s, which suggests the breaking distance is about 9 meters. So, acceleration, turning, excetera should take roughly 30% more distance, and likely be a bit slower due to the lower gravity.

Atmosphere is also thicker, so air resistance is higher too. So, conventional ground travel is doubly hard. Remember Pandora is partially designed to make big flying creatures more plausible.
Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of, would a Na'vi be able to walk n miles faster on Pandora than a human would on Earth.

Depending on the denser atmosphere's make up this might mean more Oxygen content, and with a lower gravity it might be possible to walk faster/expand less energy and become fatigued slower.

Pandorans are also taller so thet means longer feet and a larger distance traveled with each step.
 

JagerIV

Well-known member
Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of, would a Na'vi be able to walk n miles faster on Pandora than a human would on Earth.

Depending on the denser atmosphere's make up this might mean more Oxygen content, and with a lower gravity it might be possible to walk faster/expand less energy and become fatigued slower.

Pandorans are also taller so thet means longer feet and a larger distance traveled with each step.

Likely, though probably not materially. Na'vi are roughly 3 meters, so 1 step a second of 1.5 meter steps would be a walking speed of roughly 5.4 kph, vs human 3.6 kph average. The Na'vi cavalry and airborne are likely so much faster a higher march speed might not be overly important, and the Catachan's might be sufficiently superhuman to keep pace on foot.
 

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