United States Biden administration policies and actions - megathread

Rocinante

Russian Bot
Founder
This question lacks so much context as to be almost meaningless.

'Back down to an escalation.'

What escalation?

Russia invaded another country. That's an escalation to 'hot war.'

What exactly do you think NATO is going to do that is going to get Putin to commit suicide for both himself and his nation?

I don't want vague generalities. I don't want 'serious provocation' indistinctness. I want you to say what specific line(s) you think NATO crossing would convince Putin suicide is preferable to fighting and living on.
What escalation?

Uhh..joining NATO in the middle of a war and starting ww3 by adding 30 countries into the war?

I was after all, responding to a post that said "It would stop Russia if they joined NATO."

Since you weren't aware, joining NATO during an active conflict, would in fact be an escalation, because the alliance then would have to actually act on that.

Welcome to WW3.

This would be the end for Putin, and seeing as he isn't doing great in Ukraine right now, but shows no signs of stopping, I have no reason to believe he wouldn't continue. I have no reason to believe he wouldn't drop nukes, if he saw that his end was inevitable anyways.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
If Ukraine was to join NATO because NATO broke thier own rules, then Russia would basically be given an ultimatum. Leave Ukraine or NATO will get invovl3d.
And then yeah ww3 if he doesn't.

Thing is, how is that escalation WHEN HE ALREADY INVADED ANOTHER COUNTRY.

If Russia threatening to nuke multiple countries and invade multiple arnt seen as escalations then NATO giving an ultimatum isn't either.
Since they have done the same to Ukraine and NATO countries and didn't do shit.
 

Rocinante

Russian Bot
Founder
If Ukraine was to join NATO because NATO broke thier own rules, then Russia would basically be given an ultimatum. Leave Ukraine or NATO will get invovl3d.
And then yeah ww3 if he doesn't.

Thing is, how is that escalation WHEN HE ALREADY INVADED ANOTHER COUNTRY.

If Russia threatening to nuke multiple countries and invade multiple arnt seen as escalations then NATO giving an ultimatum isn't either.
Since they have done the same to Ukraine and NATO countries and didn't do shit.
Okay, it's a war between two countries.

Adding 30 countries to the war is escalating the conflict.

I know that this might be hard for you to understand, but 32 is a lot higher than 2.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Okay, it's a war between two countries.

Adding 30 countries to the war is escalating the conflict.

I know that this might be hard for you to understand, but 32 is a lot higher than 2.
And threatening to invade a country because they supplied weapons and threatening to nuke a country because they are helping s country is also escalation.

But I remeber all of yall saying that invasion wasn't gonna happen and all thier threats were just that.
So.....

What I am saying is that thinking that if NATO annexed Ukraine as a member and NATO said stop fighting or we will get involved is like all the threats Russia put on Finland, Poland, Romania, Moldova...
 

Rocinante

Russian Bot
Founder
And threatening to invade a country because they supplied weapons and threatening to nuke a country because they are helping s country is also escalation.

But I remeber all of yall saying that invasion wasn't gonna happen and all thier threats were just that.
So.....

What I am saying is that thinking that if NATO annexed Ukraine as a member and NATO said stop fighting or we will get involved is like all the threats Russia put on Finland, Poland, Romania, Moldova...
You can look back to my posts back then, and find me telling anyone who didn't think an invasion was going to happen, that they were a moron.

No one is denying that Russia started it and has made threats.

None of that means that getting 30 more countries involved isn't a MASSIVE escalation.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
You can look back to my posts back then, and find me telling anyone who didn't think an invasion was going to happen, that they were a moron.

No one is denying that Russia started it and has made threats.

None of that means that getting 30 more countries involved isn't a MASSIVE escalation.
It isn't like NATO would bum rush the border.

And tk Russia NATO is the combatants they are facing
 

DarthOne

☦️
Isn't that how WW1 started?

The agreement of mutual military alliances if country A is attacked, country B and C send troops to fight country D who also invokes their own military alliances for country E and F to join the war?
Yes, yes it was.

The Archduke of Austria-Hungary, Franz Ferdinand, being shot by a Serbian nationalist was just the first of the dozens of shaky dominos falling and the alliances in Europe pretty much ensured that within a matter of weeks everyone would be at each other's throats.

Austria-Hungary was pissed at Serbia, Russia stepped in to protect Serbia, Austria-Hungary mobilized against Serbia, Germany assured that it would support Austria-Hungary, Russia mobilized against Austria-Hungary, Germany mobilized as well and attacked Belgium and France to prevent a two-front war it couldn't win, Britain stepped in to protect neutral Belgium, etc. And I'm sure I missed something.

The sad thing is that the whole alliance system which was supposed to balance the competing powers of Europe ensured that a total war was the only logical outcome. Half a century before, Austria-Hungary and Serbia would've slugged it out and the rest would've watched on the sidelines.

And beautifully mocked here.




On a more amusing note...

An ostrich WAS involved! Archduke Franz Ferdinand was wearing a formal hat with green ostrich feathers when he got shot! Thus a poor old ostrich did die for nothing.
 
Last edited:

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
What escalation?

Uhh..joining NATO in the middle of a war and starting ww3 by adding 30 countries into the war?

I was after all, responding to a post that said "It would stop Russia if they joined NATO."

Since you weren't aware, joining NATO during an active conflict, would in fact be an escalation, because the alliance then would have to actually act on that.

Welcome to WW3.

This would be the end for Putin, and seeing as he isn't doing great in Ukraine right now, but shows no signs of stopping, I have no reason to believe he wouldn't continue. I have no reason to believe he wouldn't drop nukes, if he saw that his end was inevitable anyways.

Thank you for being specific. Now, in response:

1. If NATO did violate its rules and inducted Ukraine while the war is still active, the Russian military would be crushed almost instantly. They have no way of competing with NATO air power; at absolute best they would inflict some painful losses before their air force and ground-based AA were wiped out. Doing so would take a few days to a few weeks, after which Russian artillery would be smashed to bits by air-strikes, and that's pretty much game.

2. I don't think NATO is going to have Ukraine join in the middle of the war, nor do I think they should. I think in the shitty situation going on right now, that massively supplying Ukraine in their fight against Russia is NATO's best move. It will probably result in either a stalemate or Ukrainian victory, and Russia ends up weakened and humiliated either way.

3. If NATO did join in the war directly, I still see the most direct result as being kicking Russia back across their border and stopping there, because Russia is a nuclear power and nobody in NATO wants to make them desperate.

4. In following of 3, I do not believe the Russians would actually escalate to launching nuclear weapons. Putin knows that if he does that, Russia will cease to exist. A humiliated Russia can recover and make another play at empire in 10-20 years, a Russia subjected to mass nuclear bombardment not only will cease to exist, it will go down in history as the most suicidal empire in human history, and its memory will be hated forevermore for all the destruction it wrecks.

You say you have no reason to think he wouldn't drop nukes, and I call utter bullshit. Mutually Assured Destruction has kept nuclear weapons from being employed in war since WWII ended, and nothing about its deterrent value against Russia (and China) has changed in that regard. Even if Putin lost his mind enough to try to push the button, you're presuming that his ruling cadre wouldn't stop him, and the fact that they don't want to die either gives them a pretty damned strong motivation for that.

If you want to make an argument that MAD no longer holds sway, you're going to have to do a hell of a lot better than 'I have no reason.' You need reasons, multiple strong ones, if you're going to convince people that Putin has become suicidal, and spiteful enough towards his own nation and people to destroy them as well.

5. Unless things do go nuclear, NATO joining this conflict would not expand it remotely close to enough to make it count as a 'World War.' Russia lacks the military strength to beat Ukraine by itself, Belarus is its only European ally, and their military is only a step or three above 'complete joke.' Given the competence displayed in Ukraine, the Russian military would be crushed very swiftly, and the conflict would be smaller than even Desert Storm in 1991.
 

Ixian

Well-known member
Yes, yes it was.

The Archduke of Austria-Hungary, Franz Ferdinand, being shot by a Serbian nationalist was just the first of the dozens of shaky dominos falling and the alliances in Europe pretty much ensured that within a matter of weeks everyone would be at each other's throats.

Austria-Hungary was pissed at Serbia, Russia stepped in to protect Serbia, Austria-Hungary mobilized against Serbia, Germany assured that it would support Austria-Hungary, Russia mobilized against Austria-Hungary, Germany mobilized as well and attacked Belgium and France to prevent a two-front war it couldn't win, Britain stepped in to protect neutral Belgium, etc. And I'm sure I missed something.

The sad thing is that the whole alliance system which was supposed to balance the competing powers of Europe ensured that a total war was the only logical outcome. Half a century before, Austria-Hungary and Serbia would've slugged it out and the rest would've watched on the sidelines.

And beautifully mocked here.




On a more amusing note...

An ostrich WAS involved! Archduke Franz Ferdinand was wearing a formal hat with green ostrich feathers when he got shot! Thus a poor old ostrich did die for nothing.


Russia actually mobilized long before the rest of the European powers.
 

mrttao

Well-known member
Thing is, how is that escalation WHEN HE ALREADY INVADED ANOTHER COUNTRY.
escalation means "take one more step towards the extreme". it does not mean "violence".

let me explain the term with an example:
You are debating with someone
Escalation 1: he raises his voice, you respond in kind
Escalation 2: you start cussing him, he responds in kind
Escalation 3: he threatens you, you respond in kind
Escalation 4: you threaten his family, he responds in kind
Escalation 5: he punches you, you respond in kind. you are now fistfighting
Escalation 6: you pull a knife, he respond in kind. you are now trying to murder each other
Escalation 7: his brother joins, you respond in kind. this is now a violent family fued
Escalation 8: extended family gets involved. this is now a bloody clan feud.

etc.

Basically your argument is saying "since side B escalated at some point during this conflict. any further escalations by side A do not really count as escalations"
which... is just wrong.

You could argue that side A are the ones in the right in the conflict, or that they have a right to escalate because of reason (castle doctrine, self defense, they felt threatened, blah blah blah).

But whether an escalation is justified or not is irrelevant, it is still an escalation. And might potentially have consequences. (edit: for example: WW1)
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
The point being.

In the end, Russia is not going to look good in this, and nukes WILL not fly unless we go past Donbass if we got invovled
 

Cherico

Well-known member
Crossing into Crimea might also be the thing that does it, Regardless NATO (mostly just the US if we are being honest) directly joining the war would be really fucking stupid.
Yeah at this point our goal is basically to bleed the Russians white in Ukraine so we don't have to risk nuclear war when they attack a ally after they finish genociding the Ukrainians again.
 

Carrot of Truth

War is Peace
Yeah at this point our goal is basically to bleed the Russians white in Ukraine so we don't have to risk nuclear war when they attack a ally after they finish genociding the Ukrainians again.

I don't see any reason as to why they would directly attack a NATO ally, That would be beyond retarded.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
I don't see any reason as to why they would directly attack a NATO ally, That would be beyond retarded.

Geography and demographics.

Russia lives on the european plain otherwise known as the hoard lands or the high way of death. The only way they have found to secure themselves from invasion is to expand until they hit natural land boarders.

Russia's demographics have been fucked in order by world war one, the russian civil war, world war two, communism and then the 90s collapse and after all of this all of their fuck ups are finally catching up with them. Russia is one of the fastest aging societies in the world and will not have enough troops to protect their current boarders, maintain their industry and a bunch of other things.

But if they expand to those access points they wont need nearly as many troops to do so.

The wars and claims Putin has done has been done to plug those gaps Ukraine is not the end it is the middle.

The reason why we can't allow this is that in order for russia to feel secure it must take over a region of population that has more people then russia itself, directly control it and commit genocide on the people who live there. This means the balts this means poland up to the vistula river this means europe up to the capathians.

This includes nato allies, Russia considers this to be a series of wars for national survival and they might be right. Their fuck up in ukraine taught us that in a war Russia would be anhilated by nato. Which intitially made us happy until we realized that Russia will either have to be humilated or bring out the nukes when they think of themselves as being on their last generation.

So the current goal is to destroy the Russian army in Ukraine, so that doesn't become an issue, because once Ukraine is put down by the russians Nato is faced with two possibilities let russia genocide millions of people so they can feel safe, or we do to Russia what the Romans did to Cathrage and finally put them down once and for all.
 

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