ASOIAF/GOT ASOIAF Ideas, Recs, and Discussion thread

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
Although that ‘cute bastard wolf’ might be her cousin, unless R + L = J doesn’t apply in your scenario.

It would, but I think the character's plan there would be to pimp him out to Deanarys offer a joint monarchy to be later unified by marrying their kids.

She'd likely try and make a similar offer to the Blackfyre pretender and the Golden company once she realizes the nonsense about ice fairies isn't nonsense.

"Our Grandchildren will sit upon an Iron throne in the shadows of a living realm, not one of corpses...bloodlines unified or else all perishes with our squabbling."

edit-I don't think it would be that easy, but that would probably be the strategy.
 
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TheRomanSlayer

Unipolarity is for Subhuman Trogdolytes
It would, but I think the character's plan there would be to pimp him out to Deanarys offer a joint monarchy to be later unified by marrying their kids.

She'd likely try and make a similar offer to the Blackfyre pretender and the Golden company once she realizes the nonsense about ice fairies isn't nonsense.

"Our Grandchildren will sit upon an Iron throne in the shadows of a living realm, not one of corpses...bloodlines unified or else all perishes with our squabbling."

edit-I don't think it would be that easy, but that would probably be the strategy.
I think by the time Argella would plan something for Jon, he’d already be a member of the Night’s Watch, unless your plans for him would be different.

In this case however, I’d probably see Sansa married off to either a Valeman (Harry Hardyng), a Dornishman (Edric Dayne) or Domeric Bolton.

And Stannis would be a hypocrite if he contested Argella’s claim on the throne, given that Shireen is his only daughter who would have the same claim as her older cousin in this scenario.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
I think by the time Argella would plan something for Jon, he’d already be a member of the Night’s Watch, unless your plans for him would be different.

I would have Argella end up in Winterfell a year ahead of the rest of her family with her own agenda in hand and with her working on Jon to make sure he doesn't fuck off to the wall.


In this case however, I’d probably see Sansa married off to either a Valeman (Harry Hardyng), a Dornishman (Edric Dayne) or Domeric Bolton.

Edric Dayne is an interesting pick.


And Stannis would be a hypocrite if he contested Argella’s claim on the throne, given that Shireen is his only daughter who would have the same claim as her older cousin in this scenario.

It would also be a lot harder to call her a bastard, when she'd be the first to leak the info and support her uncles claims and ask him to come to Winterfel to stand as her Hand along side Regent Stark.
 
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TheRomanSlayer

Unipolarity is for Subhuman Trogdolytes
I got the idea of a Sansa x Edric Dayne from the fic, “Winter Roses”.

Plus Argella marrying Robb would mean that he might either become a Prince Consort, or the King on the Iron Throne alongside her. There’s also the issue of Robert’s 16 bastard children as well, so I’d suspect that Argella might legitimize Gendry, Mya, and perhaps Edric Storm, if only because they need a Baratheon in Storm’s End.

I can imagine the Argella of this scenario to be a combination of Margaery and Arianne in terms of appearance.
 

Buba

A total creep
Argella might legitimize Gendry, Mya, and perhaps Edric Storm,
The only legitimizeable specimen is Edric. Son of a Highborn Lady, related to half the Reach, raised by Renly in Storms End. A ready made Lord.
Mya is a girl, daughter of a commoner in the Vale. Even if raised as minor nobility she is not Lord Paramount material.
Gendry? GENDRY? LOL! He's an absolute nobody, a Kings Landing guttersnipe.
 

TheRomanSlayer

Unipolarity is for Subhuman Trogdolytes
The only legitimizeable specimen is Edric. Son of a Highborn Lady, related to half the Reach, raised by Renly in Storms End. A ready made Lord.
Mya is a girl, daughter of a commoner in the Vale. Even if raised as minor nobility she is not Lord Paramount material.
Gendry? GENDRY? LOL! He's an absolute nobody, a Kings Landing guttersnipe.
True, although in canon TV show that didn't stop Dany from legitimizing him.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
.
Gendry? GENDRY? LOL! He's an absolute nobody, a Kings Landing guttersnipe.

I can see her doing it as recompense, creating a cadet branch and say shoving him somewhere up north or something. For say, heroic deeds in battle or someshit.

Which is believable but it would be the onnnllyyy way.

True, although in canon TV show that didn't stop Dany from legitimizing him.

Yeah but that's Dany, she's a retard and also the entire Baratheon clan was reduced to literally just Gendry.
 

TheRomanSlayer

Unipolarity is for Subhuman Trogdolytes
Gendry in the North could make sense, especially if he's starting a cadet branch of House Baratheon, should Argella of the planned scenario legitimizes him.

- The Woes of Being a Frey: Poor Walder Frey could not catch a break when his sons and grandsons are constantly incompetent in whatever the Seven Hells they're doing, or what they are. The only sad hope for the old patriarch of a forgotten House lies in poor Aegon, better known as Jinglebell.

- Star-Crossed Trout: Basically a Romeo and Juliet style story, but in this case the Tullys and the Daynes have a blood feud with each other over some minor incident. It involves Edmure Tully meeting and falling in love with Allyria Dayne, to the fury of the houses involved.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
The Shinsengumi in Westeros.

Specifically the Rouroni Kenshin version.

"House Stark's most feared bannermen have come! The Wolves of Mibu castle!"

"Slay Evil Instantly"


- Star-Crossed Trout: Basically a Romeo and Juliet style story, but in this case the Tullys and the Daynes have a blood feud with each other over some minor incident. It involves Edmure Tully meeting and falling in love with Allyria Dayne, to the fury of the houses involved.

"I shall call Arthur's blade limp which is a disgrace if he should bear it!"

"GO FORTH WALDER I SHALL BACK THEE!"

"Peace? Verily Edmure I hate the word as I hate the seven hells and all Tullys!"

Robert sauntering drunkenly into the aftermath

"ALL ART PUNISHED! ALLL ARRT PUNISHED...now someone get me a fook'n drink"
 
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TheRomanSlayer

Unipolarity is for Subhuman Trogdolytes
The Shinsengumi in Westeros.

Specifically the Rouroni Kenshin version.

"House Stark's most feared bannermen have come! The Wolves of Mibu castle!"

"Slay Evil Instantly"




"I shall call Arthur's blade limp which is a disgrace should he bear it!"

"GO FORTH WALDER I SHALL BACK THEE!"

"Peace? Verily Edmure I hate the word as I hate the seven hells and all Tully's!"

Robert sauntering drunkenly into the aftermath

"ALL ART PUNISHED! ALLL ARRT PUNISHED...now someone get me a fook'n drink"
Tywin or Robert would be a good representation of the Prince from Romeo and Juliet, while Jason Mallister would be a good Benvolio.
 

Emperor Tippy

Merchant of Death
Super Moderator
Staff Member
Founder
It would, but I think the character's plan there would be to pimp him out to Deanarys offer a joint monarchy to be later unified by marrying their kids.

She'd likely try and make a similar offer to the Blackfyre pretender and the Golden company once she realizes the nonsense about ice fairies isn't nonsense.

"Our Grandchildren will sit upon an Iron throne in the shadows of a living realm, not one of corpses...bloodlines unified or else all perishes with our squabbling."

edit-I don't think it would be that easy, but that would probably be the strategy.
That would be a horrid idea.

The Blackfyres are utterly hated in Westeros and are seen as, rightly, responsible for something like five major civil wars in their attempts to steal a throne they had no claim to.

The benefits of the Golden Company are entirely outweighed by the political and social costs of making nice with the Blackfyres and bringing their army to Westeros.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
That would be a horrid idea.

That would probably be the point. That's its a terrible notion and at best this theoretical Baratheon is just using the offer to either, grant the character a pretext to just take out who she needs to take out with a really superficial pretext or a really dumb attempt to use people as cannon fodder against the Others.

Brilliance in GOT usually is "Brilliance" the way SB'ers mean "competence." so.


The benefits of the Golden Company are entirely outweighed by the political and social costs of making nice with the Blackfyres and bringing their army to Westeros.

I do, sort of see the Golden Company's benefit in that you can use them or unsullied to essentially form the core of a "national army." other than that, you're right.

And there are probably less contentious ways to do that.
 

Emperor Tippy

Merchant of Death
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Staff Member
Founder
I do, sort of see the Golden Company's benefit in that you can use them or unsullied to essentially form the core of a "national army." other than that, you're right.

And there are probably less contentious ways to do that.
Using the Unsullied would be worse unless you take the Daenerys approach, and that has its own issues.

Simply being known as someone who uses slaves is political suicide for any Lord and would make you an enemy of both the Faith and the Old Gods.

If the throne wants a proper standing army, creating one isn't actually that hard. It's just expensive, time consuming, and comes with all of the attendant political risks.

What seperates a professional army from a more traditional feudal military force isn't the skill level of the individual soldiers, it is the mass discipline, the ancillary skills (marching, camping, etc.), and the benefits of it being a full time job.

Just go round up a bunch of sixteen year old peasants in generally good health (for peasants), feed them properly and consistently, and then start them marching with full packs, running obstacle courses, etc. day after day until they are in proper shape before/alongside the needed skills.

What weapons you give them largely depends on what exactly you want them able to do and the expected opposition. But at the end of the day, actual combat skills are the least relevant part of the professional army. Long term good nutrition & exercise along with good discipline are where the vast majority of the advantages come from.

A larger problem in Westeros is simply the vast scale that a central government needs to operate on. Given communications and travel times, what Westeros is realistically like is a shit ton of knightly houses with each Knight having a dozen or so decently trained men at arms and with the whole lot supported by the village or two that is the knights domain. When the Lord calls the levies, he gathers all those knights as his calvary and their men at arms are all basically thrown together as the "professional" infantry that oversees perhaps three to four times their own number in peasant levies (depending on season and the supply situation).

---
Granted, Westeros is incredibly schizophrenic when it comes to society, tech, and military development.

And let's not even get started on the stupidity involved in the Conquest and how the Targaryens behaved. Remember that Aegon created the Crownlands and set all of the Riverlands actual borders. Anyone sane would have created the Crownlands with the border at the Blackwater and along the Harrenhall-Darry line, and seeing as the Riverlands at the time were not unified and straight up conquered by force of arms there was zero political reason not to draw the borders there. Or the Reach, with the Gardeners dead it would have been easy to peel off a chunk for the Stormlands and split the rest between the Hightowers and Tyrells.
 

TheRomanSlayer

Unipolarity is for Subhuman Trogdolytes
I would have thought that Joffrey’s plan to create a professional standing army does have merit, though if it went the path of JOctavian fic, where that fic’s Joffrey would use the City Watch as a basis for an actual standing army, it might go well.
 

Emperor Tippy

Merchant of Death
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Staff Member
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I would have thought that Joffrey’s plan to create a professional standing army does have merit, though if it went the path of JOctavian fic, where that fic’s Joffrey would use the City Watch as a basis for an actual standing army, it might go well.

The crown should absolutely create a professional, standing, army. Push the Crownlands borders to the Harrenhall-Darry line, secure all of the viable crossing points of the Blackwater and Trident, and fortify that line and the Crownlands become incredibly secure. Armies don't cross rivers in force easily or quickly and so the crown can secure the Crownlands relatively cheaply (in terms of manpower).

Raise a standing army of ten to twenty thousand men, quartered in spread out forts across the Crownlands; each with perhaps five hundred men. Use those men as the solid core to build a larger army around when needed.

Really though, before you create a professional army you are better off creating a semaphore network. That allows substantially increased communications speeds and each semaphore tower can do double duty as a base for a small garrison to operate out of and as a place for the crown to interact with the locals. The cost to raise, train, equip, and keep fed an army will exceed the cost of building such a network over time and will be generally less useful.

And for all the hate they get, canals are a good idea (unless the terrain is unsuitable). The Bite-Blazewater canal might not be that feasible but connecting the Gods Eye to the Trident or the Trident to Seagard is less extreme. Or the Blackwater to the Mandar. Those all would massively decrease travel times and allow substantial growth.

Then there are roads. Westeros has a really crappy road network, fixing that has substantial military and economic benefits.

Where a professional army helps you is with keeping the Nobles in line. Well in Westeros, without dragons, that isn't really possible. The Iron Throne rules because the Lord's see it as more useful than not. Unless the local population, and lesser nobles, are willing to support the Crown over their Lord Paramount then the North, Westerlands, Vale, and Dorne are effectively impossible to militarily defeat on any kind of reasonable time scale or at any kind of reasonable cost for the throne. The Reach is only slightly less secure.

You simply aren't getting an army through the natural choke points to enter those realms. Which means you have to use a navy and ship in men and supplies. That is substantially more expensive and, in many respects, at least as difficult as simply marching an army in.

If the crown has dragons then armies are largely irrelevant and the crown doesn't need any substantial amount of force under its direct control - much less a true, professional, standing army of any scale.

If the crown lacks dragons then no army that it can field and maintain will be enough to actually force compliance on the lords; and so its largely a wasted expense.
 

Buba

A total creep
Here's also one question that bugs me: what would a reign of Aerys II look like without the Defiance of Duskendale incident that made him go on the deep end of his sanity?
He had been a crazy sadist for years already - I'd not expect much change.
 
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Emperor Tippy

Merchant of Death
Super Moderator
Staff Member
Founder
Here's also one question that bugs me: what would a reign of Aerys II look like without the Defiance of Duskendale incident that made him go on the deep end of his sanity?

No one can even pretend to give an honest prediction. How insane he was before is an open question.

The more interesting question is what happens if he dies and Rhaegar becomes King then instead.
 

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