Philosophy Why Individualism is False

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
I used the Encyclopedia Britannica as a guide to individualism. It's word that has encompasses many aspects - some of which I agree with. But call it whatever you like, I still hold that the views I refuted are 1) commonly held by modern people, 2) false, and 3) incredibly destructive as a result of one and two.

Well... I think there's some false alternatives there. Let's start with "an individual cannot exist without society" - "society" is an ideologically loaded term. I would prefer to say that people cannot usually exist without community. Which is not the same thing.
I think I read somewhere that "society" is a Socialist concept - community is a Christian one.
Socialists want people to be dependent on the State, and are at war against the family, (nuclear or extended), the church, and community in general. They want a collection of atomized individuals, with government as the only form of social fabric.
Here's how I feel about that version of "society":
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Now imagine those two, and some others, and their wives and children, building a new community without the busybody, parasitic socialist state trying to control them.
 

ParadiseLost

Well-known member
Its really self apparent that your argument is a strawman, actually. You don't represent individualism in the sense that you represent how actual individualists behave.

Though, I'm a Randian Objectivist and Nietzschean Existentialist. I'm hardly going to pretend I'm an unbiased judge of the debate between individualism and collectivism.

However, I'm not much interesting in arguing with you, primarily because you do not come across as someone whose mind can be changed.

There are questions I'd like to ask though:

1) Correct me if I'm wrong about any of my assumptions here, but I believe you to be (a) espousing the quotes within your signiture; and (b) to be against communism. Assuming that is true, if you believe America to be essentially both communist and Individualist, how do you unite these two ideas? Do you believe communism to be an individualistic ideology? If so, why?

2) Why do you consider the idea that "individuals cannot exist without society" to be relevant when the statement "society cannot exist without individuals" is equally true?

3) Have you ever considered that if you apply the "common good" as a rule for society, you will end up with many cases where the common good for one group is bad for another? For example, if one team wins, the other team must lose; if one army is victorious, another must be defeated.

I find it funny that you claim that the "common good" is "the good of all individuals." Its practically impossible to do this. If you try to make everyone happy, you will end up making no one happy. Just look at Congress.

4) Radical collectivism also leads to tyranny, unless you somehow make communism individualistic. Stalinist and Leninist Communism, mind you, not Marxist Communism. (Making Marxist Communism connect to individualism is too easy to be a real question).

5). I think its funny that you say that individualism denies the social orders while you also consider modern America individualistic. Intersectional ideologies promoted today by liberals value things like race, culture, ethnicity, and sex far more than individualistic philosophers do. How do you united the contradictory ideas of American liberals love of intersectional ideologies and their (supposed) individualism?
 
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The Name of Love

Far Right Nutjob
Well... I think there's some false alternatives there. Let's start with "an individual cannot exist without society" - "society" is an ideologically loaded term. I would prefer to say that people cannot usually exist without community. Which is not the same thing.
I think I read somewhere that "society" is a Socialist concept - community is a Christian one.

No, society is not a socialist concept. It derives from the Latin word societas, which in turn was derived from the noun socius (literally translated as "comrade," "friend," or "ally"). Societas was used by writers like St. Thomas to mean things like "fellowship" in paragraphs like this:
Sed si loquamur de perfecta beatitudine quae erit in patria, non requiritur societas amicorum de necessitate ad beatitudinem, quia homo habet totam plenitudinem suae perfectionis in Deo. Sed ad bene esse beatitudinis facit societas amicorum. Unde Augustinus dicit, VIII super Gen. ad Litt., quod creatura spiritualis, ad hoc quod beata sit, non nisi intrinsecus adiuvatur aeternitate, veritate, caritate creatoris. Extrinsecus vero, si adiuvari dicenda est, fortasse hoc solo adiuvatur, quod invicem vident, et de sua societate gaudent in Deo.

The Catholic Encyclopedia also spells this out.

Society implies fellowship, company, and has always been conceived as signifying a human relation, and not a herding of sheep, a hiving of bees, or a mating of wild animals. The accepted definition of a society is a stable union of a plurality of persons cooperating for a common purpose of benefit to all. The fulness of co-operation involved naturally extends to all the activities of the mind, will, and external faculties, commensurate with the common purpose and the bond of union: this alone presents an adequate, human working-together.

This definition is as old as the Schoolmen, and embodies the historical concept as definitized by cogent reasoning. Under such reasoning it has become the essential idea of society and remains so still, notwithstanding the perversion of philosophical terms consequent upon later confusion of man with beast, stock, and stone. It is a priori only as far as chastened by restrictions put upon it by the necessities of known truth, and is a departure from the inductive method in vogue today only so far as to exclude rigidly the aberrations of uncivilized tribes and degenerate races from the requirements of reason and basic truth. Historical induction taken alone, while investigating efficient causes of society, may yet miss its essential idea, and is in peril of including irrational abuse with rational action and development.

The first obvious requisite in all society is authority. Without this there can be no secure co-ordination of effort nor permanency of co-operation. No secure co-ordination, for men's judgment will differ on the relative value of means for the common purpose, men's choice will vary on means of like value; and unless there is some headship, confusion will result. No permanence of co-operation, for the best of men relax in their initial resolutions, and to hold them at a coordinate task, a tight rein and a steady spur is needed. In fact, reluctant though man is to surrender the smallest tittle of independence and submit in the slightest his freedom to the bidding of another, there never has been in the history of the world a successful, nor even a serious attempt at co-operative effort without authoritative guidance. Starting with this definition and requirement, philosophy finds itself confronted with two kinds of society, the artificial or conventional, and the natural; and on pursuing the subject, finds the latter differentiating itself into domestic society, or the family, civil society, or the State, and religious society, or the Church. Each of these has a special treatment under other headings. Here, however, we shall state the philosophic basis of each, and add thereto the theories which have had a vogue for the last three centuries though breaking down now under the strain of modern problems before the bar of calm judgment.

We Catholics had the idea of a "society" long before socialists even existed. If anything, the socialists stole it from us and abused it to their own ends.

Socialists want people to be dependent on the State, and are at war against the family, (nuclear or extended), the church, and community in general. They want a collection of atomized individuals, with government as the only form of social fabric.

Indeed. It's my contention that individualism creates the conditions necessary for this by destroying organizations that threaten to define the individual.

1) Correct me if I'm wrong about any of my assumptions here, but I believe you to be (a) espousing the quotes within your signiture; and (b) to be against communism. Assuming that is true, if you believe America to be essentially both communist and Individualist, how do you unite these two ideas? Do you believe communism to be an individualistic ideology? If so, why?
First, I don't think that you'd deny that modern-day America is, from a libertarian standpoint, "collectivist." Though we have pretensions of harkening back to the roots of the American Founding (which was liberal in many ways), the quasi-dictatorship of FDR pretty much remade America into something the Founders would not recognize.

Second, as I've stated previously, communism as a totalitarian ideology is collectivist in nature, but I don't regard collectivism and individualism as these diametrically opposing forces. The two are very much linked, both causally and intellectually, by a number of modern assumptions. The three great ideologies of the 20th century - liberalism, communism, and fascism - all had their roots in the French Revolution. Even the motto of the Revolution, "liberté, égalité, fraternité," roughly corresponds to those three belief systems. These are Enlightenment philosophies, and they carry with them those assumptions.

Third, the author I was quoting, Curtis Yarvin, was using communism in an ambiguous sense. If you take a look at the dominant ideas of the ruling class, a lot of their ideas seem to come from the various socialist groups of the 18th and 19th centuries. He defended this idea in the essay "Technology, communism, and the Brown Scare." I wrote an essay on it a few months ago myself. Here's the part where I defend the thesis.

Remember how we said that America was a communist country? Well, it's obvious that we need to clarify what that means, and that mean refuting the idiotic strawmen.

First, America is not a capital-C Communist country. It's not under the control of the KGB or any such evil conspiracy, contrary to the words of the McCarthyites of the 1950s. Although there were some Stalinists within FDR's administration, they saw themselves as the senior partners in that relationship. But more on that later.

Second, America has not achieved communism. No country has ever achieved communism. Every modern communist country, from Venezuela to Cuba to China to the USSR before its decline, has had massive inequality between the rich and poor, markets, and totalitarian state control. None of this is actual communism, and none of these countries ever claimed to have achieved communism in their official propaganda. So we can't say America isn't a communist country on the grounds that we have hedgefund billionaires, especially since most of those billionaires are progressives. Hypocrisy, too, is as American as apple pie.

Third and finally, there's the dualist argument against communism. This argument claims that there is a "moderate" leftism and a "radical" leftism, and that these things have nothing whatsoever to do with one another. One is as meek and mild as a spring lamb and sounds like NPR. The other snuffs out reactionaries with a bullet to the back of the head and has a Slavic growl. But would progressives accept such a distinction with Nazis? I mean, Rudolph Hess was about as harmless as Jimmy Carter, and no doubt, if the Nazis had won the war, that whole "killing the Jews" thing would've come to be seen as a mutation of "real Nazism," an aberration created by Hitler's cult of personality. If so-called moderate leftists were really anti-communist (as opposed to being anti-Communist/anti-Soviet, a very real phenomenon), then we'd expect them to treat communists like Nazis. Instead, they treat anti-communists like Nazis and invite actual communists to their dinner parties. Huh.

To demonstrate the communist roots of America, all one has to do is look for who had the same viewpoints NPR espouses today. Moldbug's example is Thomas Wentworth Higginson: Unitarian minister, author, and terrorist financier (Quoth Moldbug: "If you have to get your balls groped at the airport, it’s because America isn’t your country. It’s John Brown’s country—you just live here"). In 1891, he helped found the Society of Friends of Russian Freedom, an organization dedicated to the overthrow of the Russian Tsar. As an old man, Higginson helped Jack London and Upton Sinclair start the Intercollegiate Socialist Society, later known as League for Industrial Democracy; that organization begat the SDS; And it, in turn, begat Bill Ayers, far-left terrorist and good friend of one Mr. Barrack H. Obama.

If all this doesn't convince you, then read some of Mr. Higginson's writings. The ideas found within are basically mainstream leftist politics now. Leftism/progressivism/"liberalism"/socialism/communism/whatever you call it is an unbroken intellectual tradition in America. Thus, "communism is as American as apple pie, and America today is a completely communist country."

Bioleninism in Modern America

Now that that's out of the way, what is communism, exactly? To understand this, I'm enlisting one of the jewels of the dissident right, the theory of Bioleninism. Under this theory, Leninism is defined as the political strategy of building a political movement to overthrow the current regime by using the dregs of society - the downtrodden, the weirdos, the lumpenproletariat - to form the backbone of the Party, with which you'll rule with an iron fist.

Here's how it works: the Party offers high status to groups that would otherwise have low status. Said groups now have a positive incentive to be loyal to the Party and despise whomever the Party claims is the enemy. When the Party obtains absolute power, they'll remain loyal in spite of any oppression because the alternative would involve the restoration of the old status quo - an unthinkable prospect. In Russia, classical Leninism, such groups include “workers and peasants,” as well as Jews and other non-Russian ethnic minorities. In Bioleninism, they are “marginalized groups” like women, blacks, mestizo Hispanics, nonwhite Muslims (especially those of Arab, African, or “Asian” descent), gays, and transgender people. Biology, rather than class, is the determining factor here.

Now, the Party doesn't necessarily care about improving the livelihoods of their charges. In fact, they are often motivated by what Moldbug calls "callous altruism" or what Charles Dickens called "telescopic philanthropy." In the revolution, the Party's leadership is often made up of people who are emotionally, culturally, and socially removed from the actual "marginalized groups" they're supposed to be helping, and that doesn't really lend itself to being all too concerned with the actual well-being of the people you're supposedly "helping." By the way, how did classic Leninism turn out for the actual workers and peasants it was supposed to help? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

And how did Bioleninism turn out for (for instance) black people? Well, when Higginson and his amazing friends freed the poor negroes in the 1860s, a fourth of the slaves died. Quoth Moldbug: "Naturally, since America is a communist country, this episode—which might under other regimes be viewed as an outbreak of mass criminal insanity—is considered one of the most glorious in our glorious history." And for the past sixty-odd years, one of the main focuses of political life was to advance the economic status of the Black Americans. Today, black areas that were once thriving business districts are now burnt-out ghettos home to feral thugs, and in most of those areas, there's a street named after Dr. King, who was also a communist. But don't take my word for it, ask black economics man!

Ultimately, this system - communism, Leninism, Bioleninism, socialism, leftism, whatever you want to call it - is evil, plain and simple. It's evil because it's a fucking lie from top to bottom. A truly charitable person wills the good of the other. If a truly charitable person's well-intentioned actions cause the ruination of the person they were trying to help, they wouldn't go "oh well, we tried" like so many champagne socialists do when confronted with the effects of their preferred policies. It's all about power, plain and simple. It's all about freeing the slaves so that they treat you as their new master. Callous altruism is sadism and power-hunger disguised as charity.

This is why I never, ever, ever, ever take seriously accusations of MUH RACISM, MUH SEXISM, MUH TRANSPHOBIA, or any other buzzwords you can think of. The kind of people who make such accusations are usually either party leaders, witch-hunters (read: petty bureaucrat and bullies for hire), or direct beneficiaries of Bioleninism. It's all cynical power-mongering. Once you see this, you can't un-see it. It's just everywhere.
TL;DR I don't believe our leaders are literally thinking "gosh, I want to create a communist utopia!" But so many of their ideas are the same, and their motivations (callous altruism) are pretty much identical, that to call them communists isn't too much of a stretch. Of course, they'd deny they're communists, and I understand that. In all fairness, I think the Marxist vision of communism is dead. But those people didn't drop their entire vision of the future when the Soviet Union failed.

2) Why do you consider the idea that "individuals cannot exist without society" to be relevant when the statement "society cannot exist without individuals" is equally true?

Because there are people who think that individuals can exist without society, but not vice versa, and there are people who agree with me on this, but don't realize that this contradicts a lot of what they believe. A lot of radical individualist philosophies (like Rothbardianism or Randianism) have a hard time dealing the problem of families and children, while more moderate ones are only able to deal with this contradiction through sophistry. The family is an inherently anti-individualist institution. It is a society in the most basic sense.

3) Have you ever considered that if you apply the "common good" as a rule for society, you will end up with many cases where the common good for one group is bad for another? For example, if one team wins, the other team must lose; if one army is victorious, another must be defeated.

I find it funny that you claim that the "common good" is "the good of all individuals." Its practically impossible to do this. If you try to make everyone happy, you will end up making no one happy. Just look at Congress.

I think your mistake is defining goodness subjectively (as in, "good is what makes me feel good") whereas I define good objectively (as in, "good is what is good for me qua human.") Taken this way, it's easy to see how the pursuit of a political common good is good for all members of society. It is simply good for a person to live in a society that makes space for people to pursue virtuous lives. The only people who will be opposed to this are either libertines (who are intellectually mistaken about what is good for them), sociopaths (whose ability to respect the good of another is impaired), and the mentally impaired (whose ability to pursue their own good is impaired).

4) Radical collectivism also leads to tyranny, unless you somehow make communism individualistic. Stalinist and Leninist Communism, mind you, not Marxist Communism. (Making Marxist Communism connect to individualism is too easy to be a real question).

And individualism leads to radical collectivism. Which was my point all along. Totalitarianism would not exist without the individualist Center destroying the Subsidiaries. I recommend reading C. A. Bond's Nemesis and Robert Nisbet's The Quest for Community for more on this thesis, if you are interested.

5). I think its funny that you say that individualism denies the social orders while you also consider modern America individualistic. Intersectional ideologies promoted today by liberals value things like race, culture, ethnicity, and sex far more than individualistic philosophers do. How do you united the contradictory ideas of American liberals love of intersectional ideologies and their (supposed) individualism?
Simple: I don't regard individualism and collectivism to be opposites of one another. I see them as two sides of the same coin. One leads into the other, and only by rejecting them both as false religions can you see the light. I think the Catholic author John Zmirak puts it best when he said:

The Worst of Libertarianism
First the problem: Our current civic religion cherrypicks the worst of two political philosophies.

From individualism we select:

  • An adolescent rejection of tradition, authority, and inherited wisdom.
  • A sense that each of us created the universe ex nihilo when we sagely decided to get born.
  • A disinterest in our ancestors and disregard for our progeny.
  • A present-driven hedonism that goads us to live for the moment.
We pretend (as Justice Kennedy infamously said in Planned Parenthood v. Casey) that each of us has the right to invent his own moral code. That our “privacy” rights protect our every sexual whim. That we should pursue our own “truths” and pleasure without regard for anyone else.

But of course, each of these choices comes with a very high price. Promiscuity leads to pregnancy, and that means women and kids in poverty. Drug abuse leads to addiction, and renders millions unfit to support themselves. Consumerism means debt, and no cushion for retirement. Narcissism prevents people from forming stable families who will care for them when they are old.

The Worst of Socialism
That’s where collectivism comes in. From it we cherrypick each of the following curious items:

  • The busybody insistence on supervising everyone’s life to ensure “compassionate” outcomes.
  • A deep suspicion of independent thinkers, zealous believers, and high achievers.
  • The idea that we’re entitled to seize other people’s stuff, or force them to work for our benefit.
  • Low standards for ourselves, but high expectations from others.
  • The fantasy that the government exists to rectify cosmic injustices.
  • The superstitious belief that though we low along with the herd, we are still unique and priceless.
Collectivism ensures that somebody else pays the price for our narcissistic choices. A welfare state will feed those kids we fathered and forgot. It will provide us rehab, when our hedonism hits bottom. When we can’t find a job it will take care of us. When we’re old it will give us a comfortable retirement. By promising all this, it renders economically superfluous the bonds of family, church, and community. Those are things that our souls deeply need. But it’s easy for us to miss that, until it’s too late.

Snowflake Solipsist Statism
So we pay for Randian individualism with other people’s money. We expect a functioning future based on other people’s children. But eventually you run out of other people’s money and children. Because the system you’ve imposed to enable your vices discourages each of the virtues. Who wants to be the “sucker” who works hard and sacrifices to fund other people’s hedonism? Not enough people, in the end. We imagine that we can siphon off enough immigrants, instead of bearing children. But the newcomers quickly catch on to the system, and milk it for all it’s worth.

What’s worse, such libertine socialism actually uses the government to repress those who dissent from it. Even if churchgoing, hard-working church schoolers or homeschoolers kept cropping up by the millions, the progressive state would repress them. And its culture would work overtime to corrupt or confiscate their children.

So the whole thing comes crashing down. Then you do get a Mad Max post-apocalyptic hellscape.

Unless you prudently choose to dismantle it first. And that’s what we need to do, while there’s still time.

I can imagine, from a Randian perspective, the ideology Zmirak describes is utterly irrational (I would agree, but for different reasons). But isn't that what you'd expect from an America that has fallen so far, so fast?
 
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King Krávoka

An infection of Your universe.
You don't represent individualism in the sense that you represent how actual individualists behave.
It's not his fault. No "ism" can be meaningfully pointed down, except as a diagnostic tool to recognize what is insidious. "Isms" can be anything tangentially related to the rest of their word.
 

ParadiseLost

Well-known member
First, I don't think that you'd deny that modern-day America is, from a libertarian standpoint, "collectivist." Though we have pretensions of harkening back to the roots of the American Founding (which was liberal in many ways), the quasi-dictatorship of FDR pretty much remade America into something the Founders would not recognize.

Second, as I've stated previously, communism as a totalitarian ideology is collectivist in nature, but I don't regard collectivism and individualism as these diametrically opposing forces. The two are very much linked, both causally and intellectually, by a number of modern assumptions. The three great ideologies of the 20th century - liberalism, communism, and fascism - all had their roots in the French Revolution. Even the motto of the Revolution, "liberté, égalité, fraternité," roughly corresponds to those three belief systems. These are Enlightenment philosophies, and they carry with them those assumptions.

Third, the author I was quoting, Curtis Yarvin, was using communism in an ambiguous sense. If you take a look at the dominant ideas of the ruling class, a lot of their ideas seem to come from the various socialist groups of the 18th and 19th centuries. He defended this idea in the essay "Technology, communism, and the Brown Scare." I wrote an essay on it a few months ago myself. Here's the part where I defend the thesis.

Actually, I don't think America is "collectivist." I think America pays tribute to collectivism, but I think the actual structure of America is a mix of oligarchical/technocratic/bureaucratic, with some light meritocracy mixed it.

So far as America pays tribute to collectivism, I think its more of a Romanesque "give them bread and circuses" attempt to appease the masses than I believe that it'll result in true collectivism(or is even intended to result in true collectivism). Whether this is intentionally or the ruling class is just blind to their own hypocrisy, I do not know.

I'd say the same thing about Revolutionary France, by the by.

Also, from that I don't believe we'd agree with what the ruling class is or what they are like.

TL;DR I don't believe our leaders are literally thinking "gosh, I want to create a communist utopia!" But so many of their ideas are the same, and their motivations (callous altruism) are pretty much identical, that to call them communists isn't too much of a stretch. Of course, they'd deny they're communists, and I understand that. In all fairness, I think the Marxist vision of communism is dead. But those people didn't drop their entire vision of the future when the Soviet Union failed.

I think its still a pretty big stretch because communism has connotations.

If I'm a communist, I want a utopia enforced by the will of the Proletariat. I want everyone to be competent, and if I want Marxist communism, I probably believe in lowering the population and transhumanism. Ditto for any version of communism washed down less than democratic socialism, which even then is really just Democratic Socialism with Progressive American Characteristics, and even then its not really the leadership of America that seems to support that. Hillary Clinton is very rich. So is Joe Biden.

I also don't believe that callous altruism is a real motivation. People are motivated by self interest, not altruism.

Because there are people who think that individuals can exist without society, but not vice versa, and there are people who agree with me on this, but don't realize that this contradicts a lot of what they believe. A lot of radical individualist philosophies (like Rothbardianism or Randianism) have a hard time dealing the problem of families and children, while more moderate ones are only able to deal with this contradiction through sophistry. The family is an inherently anti-individualist institution. It is a society in the most basic sense.

I mean... because it can't?

A society is, in the simplest sense, a collection of individuals. You can have a single individual and not have a society. You cannot have a society with no individuals within it, because a society is a container composed of multiple individuals.

I also disagree that the family is inherently an anti-individualist institution. Individualism is about what's best for me. and psychologically speaking, I am best off if I marry and attach myself to another person for the next several decades and have children, because overall life satisfaction is increased with children and overall life happiness is maximized with regularly having sex with a single partner a few times a week.

And the basis of my reasons for doing those things is individualistic, because it is what is best for me as an individual with my own wants, needs, and desires, acting with reason to attain them.

I think your mistake is defining goodness subjectively (as in, "good is what makes me feel good") whereas I define good objectively (as in, "good is what is good for me qua human.") Taken this way, it's easy to see how the pursuit of a political common good is good for all members of society. It is simply good for a person to live in a society that makes space for people to pursue virtuous lives. The only people who will be opposed to this are either libertines (who are intellectually mistaken about what is good for them), sociopaths (whose ability to respect the good of another is impaired), and the mentally impaired (whose ability to pursue their own good is impaired).

No.

If I enjoy eating raspberries, it is objectively true that I enjoy it. My enjoyment of it my be subjective, but the fact that I enjoy it is not.

Additionally, this has not actually addressed the problem I presented. In order for one team to win, the other must lose. How do you reconcile common good with this?

And individualism leads to radical collectivism. Which was my point all along. Totalitarianism would not exist without the individualist Center destroying the Subsidiaries. I recommend reading C. A. Bond's Nemesis and Robert Nisbet's The Quest for Community for more on this thesis, if you are interested.

That's an argument against authoritarianism/totalitarianism/absolute monarchism, not individualism.

I'd argue that what you're describing is only a problem in countries with low levels of education and bad-faith leadership.

Simple: I don't regard individualism and collectivism to be opposites of one another. I see them as two sides of the same coin. One leads into the other, and only by rejecting them both as false religions can you see the light. I think the Catholic author John Zmirak puts it best when he said:

I can imagine, from a Randian perspective, the ideology Zmirak describes is utterly irrational (I would agree, but for different reasons). But isn't that what you'd expect from an America that has fallen so far, so fast?

So a horseshoe philosophy then. Go too far in either direction and you end up closer together.

You can't actually reject both of them entirely, though, which makes the statement a bit meaningless. To completely and entirely reject individualism would be to deny the differences between individuals entirely, for example, which is obviously absurd.

You can only reject individualism and collectivism in degrees. At which point you're just saying something obvious because pretty much any ideology worth discussing is bad if you take it to its most extreme point and then keep going.
 

The Name of Love

Far Right Nutjob
Actually, I don't think America is "collectivist." I think America pays tribute to collectivism, but I think the actual structure of America is a mix of oligarchical/technocratic/bureaucratic, with some light meritocracy mixed it.

So far as America pays tribute to collectivism, I think its more of a Romanesque "give them bread and circuses" attempt to appease the masses than I believe that it'll result in true collectivism(or is even intended to result in true collectivism). Whether this is intentionally or the ruling class is just blind to their own hypocrisy, I do not know.

I'd say the same thing about Revolutionary France, by the by.

Also, from that I don't believe we'd agree with what the ruling class is or what they are like.

You're correct, we probably wouldn't agree on the nature of the ruling class of America.

I think its still a pretty big stretch because communism has connotations.

If I'm a communist, I want a utopia enforced by the will of the Proletariat. I want everyone to be competent, and if I want Marxist communism, I probably believe in lowering the population and transhumanism. Ditto for any version of communism washed down less than democratic socialism, which even then is really just Democratic Socialism with Progressive American Characteristics, and even then its not really the leadership of America that seems to support that. Hillary Clinton is very rich. So is Joe Biden.

I also don't believe that callous altruism is a real motivation. People are motivated by self interest, not altruism.

Callous altruism is self-interested; in fact, it's false altruism. It's literally a desire for power masked by a veneer of altruism.

Actual altruism is results-based. If you wanted to save someone from dying, but your efforts ended up killing them, then you'd feel horrible. Communism is attempting to save someone from dying, failing, and then going "oh well."

I mean... because it can't?

A society is, in the simplest sense, a collection of individuals. You can have a single individual and not have a society. You cannot have a society with no individuals within it, because a society is a container composed of multiple individuals.

I also disagree that the family is inherently an anti-individualist institution. Individualism is about what's best for me. and psychologically speaking, I am best off if I marry and attach myself to another person for the next several decades and have children, because overall life satisfaction is increased with children and overall life happiness is maximized with regularly having sex with a single partner a few times a week.

And the basis of my reasons for doing those things is individualistic, because it is what is best for me as an individual with my own wants, needs, and desires, acting with reason to attain them.

That's a nominalist view of society shared by individualists. I am not a nominalist. The Catholic tradition believes that groups can and do become more than the sum of their members. The Church itself is one example, as are social institutions like governments, corporations, private associations, and the like. These entities have a quasi-personal status that can ascribed to rights and obligations. This idea is one of the distinguishing features of the Western tradition in general. It's foundational to the ideal of rule of law, insofar as that ideal requires that authority be separated as far as possible from the whims of individual rulers and placed instead into institutions.

No.

If I enjoy eating raspberries, it is objectively true that I enjoy it. My enjoyment of it my be subjective, but the fact that I enjoy it is not.

Additionally, this has not actually addressed the problem I presented. In order for one team to win, the other must lose. How do you reconcile common good with this?

Again, you're defining goodness as pleasure. I'm defining goodness as a perfection according to one's nature. This is an article that explains the concept of goodness in greater detail. This isn't about you feeling good. This is about you actually being good. A good government won't satisfy the desires of the masses, but it will be good for them.

That's an argument against authoritarianism/totalitarianism/absolute monarchism, not individualism.

I'd argue that what you're describing is only a problem in countries with low levels of education and bad-faith leadership.

You seem not to understand what I'm saying, so here is an analogy.

Imagine political society is a body, and totalitarianism is a deadly disease. What I'm saying is that individualism is like HIV - it destroys the body's immunity to the disease (totalitarianism). I described the process by which this took place in the original post. I referenced the authors that I got this idea from. What more do you want?

So a horseshoe philosophy then. Go too far in either direction and you end up closer together.

You can't actually reject both of them entirely, though, which makes the statement a bit meaningless. To completely and entirely reject individualism would be to deny the differences between individuals entirely, for example, which is obviously absurd.

You can only reject individualism and collectivism in degrees. At which point you're just saying something obvious because pretty much any ideology worth discussing is bad if you take it to its most extreme point and then keep going.

This is the problem: you see individualism and collectivism as two sides of the same spectrum that all political ideologies can be fit under. I see them as broad philosophical movements that were born out of the Enlightenment and ended up devastating the world in the 20th century. The idea that you need to believe in individualism to believe in individuals or in collectivism to believe in collectives is nonsensical to me.
 

ParadiseLost

Well-known member
Altruism is an ideology, not an action.

Whether or not you're a nominalist is irrelevant. Even given that a society of individuals is worth more than the sum of it's parts (which I'd agree with), it's still true that if you reduce a society to zero individuals, there is nothing left, and nothing you say can change that.

You defined common good as a team winning a game. You have still yet to explain how that is a common good when it means the other team must lose, and I can only surmise at this point that you simply do not have an answer.

I'm saying that you're making a claim about individualism that is ridiculous. Hell, totalitarianism far predates individualism according to your worldview, and many of the countries considered to be the most free are highly individualistic. There's also almost no correlation between totalitarianism and individualism. (In real life, the biggest indicator of authoritarianism in a country is the prevalence of infectious diseases.)


Okay, I tire of this. I want you personally to define individualism and collectivism. Not Encyclopedia Brittanica, because you sure as hell aren't using their definition. Not defining terms makes conversation impossible on this subject, because you're clearly using a vastly different definition than me.


Sent from my phone, thus terribly formatted.
 

The Name of Love

Far Right Nutjob
Altruism is an ideology, not an action.

So? How does that, in any way, negate my characterization of communism as the ideology of callous altruism? I believe that the moral philosophy of Mrs Jellyby is what underlies communism.

Whether or not you're a nominalist is irrelevant. Even given that a society of individuals is worth more than the sum of it's parts (which I'd agree with), it's still true that if you reduce a society to zero individuals, there is nothing left, and nothing you say can change that.

When did I say that you could have a society without individuals? No, what I am saying is that to say individuals can exist without a society is as nonsensical as saying that you can have societies without individuals. Human beings are naturally inclined towards communities. They are born dependent on their parents. The society around them provides them with authority figures and experiences from which they learn. They come to form their identities based on the various Subsidiaries that exist within society. And if you take them out of society, even if they have God to supernaturally satisfy their base psychological need for social interaction, they will still be influenced by the values of the society that raised them. Do you deny this?

You defined common good as a team winning a game. You have still yet to explain how that is a common good when it means the other team must lose, and I can only surmise at this point that you simply do not have an answer.

The common good of a group can interfere with the common good of another group, yes. If we were going to take this to the level of states, then I could see how the common good of one state could interfere with the common good of another. But so what? Such conflicts are inevitable, are they not? And we have long devised measures such as international law for minimizing the harm they cause, have we not? How does the fact that one state's pursuit of the common good may lead to conflict with another state invalidate the overall theory that the purpose of government is the good of its people and not simply the fulfillment of their desires?

I'm saying that you're making a claim about individualism that is ridiculous. Hell, totalitarianism far predates individualism according to your worldview, and many of the countries considered to be the most free are highly individualistic. There's also almost no correlation between totalitarianism and individualism. (In real life, the biggest indicator of authoritarianism in a country is the prevalence of infectious diseases.)

First, you're wrong about authoritarianism. Dubai, Singapore, and Hong Kong under Sir John Cowperthwaite do much better than the United States in terms of wealth, but they are definitely authoritarian. Read this article for the details. And arguably, all pre-modern societies were authoritarian, yet not all of them were these utter shitshows relative to other countries.

Second, totalitarianism does not predate individualism. Totalitarianism was invented by Mussolini. Certainly, you could point to authoritarian regimes of the past, but that's not the same as totalitarianism. Totalitarian regimes require masses of atomized individuals and a revolutionary ideology that attempts to control all aspects of the individual's life. They also would've been impossible to implement without twentieth-century developments in communication, weaponry, and record keeping. Your entire argument that there were pre-modern totalitarian regimes is not correct.

Third, "many of the countries considered the most free are highly individualistic" is a non-sequitur. Of course an individualistic society would be considered the freest. Individualistic states justify their rule by saying "you were slaves until I freed you; you must continue to obey if you want to remain free." This sort of propaganda is what liberal states have in common with communist states, incidentally.

Okay, I tire of this. I want you personally to define individualism and collectivism. Not Encyclopedia Brittanica, because you sure as hell aren't using their definition. Not defining terms makes conversation impossible on this subject, because you're clearly using a vastly different definition than me.

"You sure as hell aren't using their definition." Even though I cited their definition. Even though I made reference again and again to the article. But whatever. I'll give you the definitions you seek:

Individualism is the philosophy that emphasizes the individual over and above other factors. It can be a moral stance, a political philosophy, an ideology, or even just a social outlook. The positions of individualists I find most problematic are the individualists' tendency to place the desires of the individual over the good of society and the individualists' pursuit of liberation as their overarching goal. Each of my four points deals with these positions. The first point shows that not only do individuals need society to exist and self-actualize, but that the pre-society individual is an abstraction. The second point shows that the individualists' emphasis on individual desire ignores the existence of common goods that are essential to individuals and that the pursuit of the common good should trump the pursuit of individual desire. The third and fourth points show that the individualists' pursuit of individual liberation is dangerous, both to the psyche of the individual themselves and to society as a whole.

Collectivism is simply individualism writ large, its equal and opposite. It, like individualism, can be a moral stance, a political philosophy, an ideology, or even just a social outlook. The general attitude of the collectivist is that large-scale society as a whole (a class, a nation, a race, etc.) is just one big blob, of which the individuals in it are but cells. The accent is on collective action, with the good of individuals being a mere afterthought. This is problematic since the purpose of the state is the good of its people, not the desires of the blob as interpreted by some dictator.
 
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Fleiur

Well-known member
I also disagree that the family is inherently an anti-individualist institution. Individualism is about what's best for me. and psychologically speaking, I am best off if I marry and attach myself to another person for the next several decades and have children, because overall life satisfaction is increased with children and overall life happiness is maximized with regularly having sex with a single partner a few times a week.

And the basis of my reasons for doing those things is individualistic, because it is what is best for me as an individual with my own wants, needs, and desires, acting with reason to attain them.
That kind of thinking is why marriages end up in separation or divorce.

When you're married, you're thinking not for yourself, but for your family.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
That kind of thinking is why marriages end up in separation or divorce.
When you're married, you're thinking not for yourself, but for your family.

Well, sadly often nowadays only one of the two people is.
 

ParadiseLost

Well-known member
That kind of thinking is why marriages end up in separation or divorce.

When you're married, you're thinking not for yourself, but for your family.

Yes, but no.

Its rarely in a persons long term rational self interest to divorce. Nearly seventy percent of people who have divorced wish they could get back with their first partner - you have basically a 1 in 3 chance of not regretting your divorce.

Even if you don't regret it, that doesn't mean it was healthy for you.
 

The Name of Love

Far Right Nutjob
Yes, but no.

Its rarely in a persons long term rational self interest to divorce. Nearly seventy percent of people who have divorced wish they could get back with their first partner - you have basically a 1 in 3 chance of not regretting your divorce.

Even if you don't regret it, that doesn't mean it was healthy for you.
Well, that is the problem with our current system. It’s all about indulging what you want, not what is good for you. The root of that is the modern emphasis on fulfilling subjective desire, which manifests itself both in our economics and in our laws.
 

almostinsane

Well-known member
Yes, but no.

Its rarely in a persons long term rational self interest to divorce. Nearly seventy percent of people who have divorced wish they could get back with their first partner - you have basically a 1 in 3 chance of not regretting your divorce.

Even if you don't regret it, that doesn't mean it was healthy for you.
It's a paradox. You want something, but you regret it afterwards. People are educated very poorly on what marriage is nowadays. They don't realize that it was never meant to be perfect until it's too late.
 

The Name of Love

Far Right Nutjob
I mean, we can talk about the problem with marriage in another forum, I believe. This forum is about the problems with individualism as a philosophy.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
I'd like to share an inspirational quote I just saw here.

AW Tozer said:
The man that will have God’s best becomes at once the object of the personal attention of the Holy Spirit. Such a man will not be required to wait for the rest of the church to come alive. He will not be penalized for the failures of his fellow Christians, nor be asked to forego the blessing till his sleepy brethren catch up.

God deals with the individual heart as exclusively as if only one existed. If this should seem to be an unduly individualistic approach to revival, let it be remembered that religion is personal before it can be social. Every prophet, every reformer, every revivalist had to meet God alone before he could help the multitudes.

The great leaders who went on to turn thousands to Christ had to begin with God and their own soul. The plain Christian of today must experience personal revival before he can hope to bring renewed spiritual life to his church.
 

Hlaalu Agent

Nerevar going to let you down
Founder
I have been reading it and finding the argumentation offered by both sides to be rather interesting. I can't remember if this has been covered, but there is differing definitions and varieties of individualism, and that people here aren't arguing from the same grounds. Thinking about it, I would say I am an individualist, but the way I view individuals is that individuals are an island, but are also not at the same time, as the everflowing river is both the same river that it was before and is not the same river.

We are as much an individual, as we are members of a group, or defined by our relationships to other people. And that individualism should take this into account, humans are a social animal, or animal-of-the-political-unit. So the individual must be seen in light of this, and the principles of other view points must be brought in and reconciled to account for this fact. Further, it must be seen in light that the individual has many more needs than individualism or at least the common conception admits to. And on many issues such as this I look towards classical philosophy, and one thought that sticks out to me is the question of freedom (or perhaps liberty) and the idea that if you are free to do whatever you want you are free, but then a problem as per the ancients arises. That if you can do whatever you want, then you can, well do whatever you want. And if you can do whatever you want your passions can thus be set free, and fed endlessly...thus in your freedom becoming a slave to your passions. This of course is not freedom, freedom is self-mastery, thus you would require the virtue to control yourself and master your passions. So freedom in this sense is not just the ability to do whatever you want, but the ability to choose not to do it, to refrain from the choice, or choose something else. That individualism needs a richer conception.

Sorry if I am rambling and disorganized, the thought struck me late night and I had to type it out stream-of-consciousness style.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
First, only the Desert Fathers who left their society to live in the desert would have the relationship with God you are saying. They were only able to do this because God supernaturally provided them with everything they needed so they could focus on meditation and prayer. The idea that this is how normal people actually function is ludicrous.

I took a fair bit of time to make sure I constructed my counterpoint to this properly. And also, because quite frankly, it was hard to wrap my mind around someone claiming to be Christian rejecting such a fundamental part of the Gospel.


We'll start with Genesis 2, what the relationship was like between man and God before sin interfered with it.

Deuteronomy 30, where God places a choice in front of the entire nation of Israel.

John 1, Where The Word came and dwelt among man.

Luke 15:11-32, the famous parable of the Prodigal Son, wherein the father, God in the story, runs out and embraces his son to be reconciled. This son had not been practicing an ascetic or remotely spiritual/pious lifestyle, but the Father was still overjoyed to be personally reunited with his son, to the point of violating social conventions in way that damaged his public dignity.

Matthew 27:50-52 and Mark 15:37-38, when Jesus dies, the veil representing the separation between man and God was torn.

James 4 has a variety of relevant verses, but the first part of 8 is particularly relevant, “Come near to God, and He will come near to you.” This is not something ordered just for church elders or leaders. There are specific commands for elders, leaders, and deacons in different parts, this is a general command for all the believers.

Galatians 3:28 speaks of a common identity, one that we find in Christ. Our common identity in Christ, is supreme over our relationships with other people, and this verse highlights how our relationships with each other, are, in fact, defined by our relationship with Christ.

And here in 2 Corinthians 5, we have a passage on being reconciled to God. On being new creations in Christ, on being ambassadors of Christ. You are not an ambassador for a monarch who you do not know; a royal ambassador is someone personally appointed by a ruler.

On the whole, your idea that only ‘Desert Fathers’ have a personal relationship is completely contradicted by scripture. We are to find our identity first and foremost in Christ; we were made for relationships with both God and Man, and the relationship with God is by far the more important. Because, you know, He’s God.

Individualism can absolutely be taken too far. But your idea of building your identity primarily on your relationship with other humans is actually a key part of what destroyed the Church in America. Christian communities became more focused on their relative social status with each other, and about presenting an image of godliness, without its substance, because they cared more about their social standing than their relationship with God. This isn't to say that we don't need to have good social relationships in order to have a healthy life and community; those are absolutely an important thing, but they are a less important thing.

In short, you’re comprehensively wrong about what is most important in forming a person’s identity, and the kind of thought you’re espousing here, is actually part of the problem we’re in now, not the solution.

The solution is to make God first and foremost in our lives again; to quote Matthew 6:33, “Seek first His Kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.”
 

The Name of Love

Far Right Nutjob
On the whole, your idea that only ‘Desert Fathers’ have a personal relationship is completely contradicted by scripture.
What...

No, this is a ridiculous strawman. No wonder you couldn't wrap your head around it since I never said that!

Recall that you said:

This is wrong. The identity of a person is, first and foremost, defined by their relationship with God.

My identity is affected by my relationship with my family. It is affected by my relationship with friends, church, government, and other human institutions.

It is defined by my relationship with God. I am a Beloved Child of God, Fearfully and Wonderfully Made. Man is not an island, but I am not an island because of my relationship with God not my relationship with other men.

Given this is your very first point, and it fails to cohere with Christian theology at the most basic level, the entirety of your argumentation thereafter collapses.
I took this to mean "people are defined ONLY by their relationship with God. Their relationship with other human beings isn't that important to the question of their identity, only as a nice filler."

So I responded:
First, only the Desert Fathers who left their society to live in the desert would have the relationship with God you are saying. They were only able to do this because God supernaturally provided them with everything they needed so they could focus on meditation and prayer. The idea that this is how normal people actually function is ludicrous. Human beings are social animals. We need actual relationships with human beings to define us, else we are incomplete. This is one of the main criticism of individualism that I focused on. The atomization of the individual destroys communities, including religious communities, which has led to the ills that plague us today.
Human beings are fundamentally social creatures. God created us to be like this. God doesn't call on us to only have a relationship with Him with few exceptions (the Desert Fathers).

I feel like there's this lack of communication going on between the two of us. So let me ask you again: do you or do you not think that one's self-identity as an "individual" with no intermediaries between the individual person and the Center (God) is destructive to the individual and to the social order surrounding the individual? Because that's what my entire thesis is based on.
 

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