Alternate History Ideas and Discussion

Skallagrim

Well-known member
'AHC: Someone other than Athens, Sparta or Thebes becomes the dominant Ancient Greek polis.'

The obvious candidate would be Corinth. POD could be as (relatively) recent as the Peloponnesian War. Specifically, if Sparta agrees to destroy Athens, Corinth profits imnensely, and will later be in an obvious position to challenge Sparta for hegemony. (In OTL, that was true of Athens, too, so for Sparta it's not unthinkable to go hard against Athens.)

Since various lesser poleis may welk consider Corinth a more palatable hegemon than thry did Athens in OTL, the anti-Spartan coalition may well end up sturdier-- leading to a Spartan defeat and a Greece thst is unified with Corinth as its foremost city and nominal hegemon.
 

Circle of Willis

Well-known member
The obvious candidate would be Corinth. POD could be as (relatively) recent as the Peloponnesian War. Specifically, if Sparta agrees to destroy Athens, Corinth profits imnensely, and will later be in an obvious position to challenge Sparta for hegemony. (In OTL, that was true of Athens, too, so for Sparta it's not unthinkable to go hard against Athens.)

Since various lesser poleis may welk consider Corinth a more palatable hegemon than thry did Athens in OTL, the anti-Spartan coalition may well end up sturdier-- leading to a Spartan defeat and a Greece thst is unified with Corinth as its foremost city and nominal hegemon.
Corinth was definitely one of the cities I was thinking of, other than Argos. What do you think a Corinthian hegemony might look like? IIRC the Corinthians' classical reputation was one of wealth, on account of their control over Isthmian commerce, and of luxurious degeneracy on account of their Temple of Aphrodite & its employees (of course, whether this is actually fair or not is up in the air, as is usual when discussing stereotypes).
Corinth, Argos, maybe one of the Asian cities.
Heck, Messine squashes Sparta and reigns supreme ...
Argos was the other one I had in mind, since it was Sparta's main rival ahead of Athens and came close to beating the Spartans overall IIRC. Don't rightly know what an Argive hegemony would look like though, or even what a victorious Argos might be. My understanding is that the Argives established the democratic government which they were known to have for much of the Classical Period only after getting beat to Hades & back by the Spartans, not before, although I guess they could still do so at some point after a crushing victory instead if they wanted to.

The Asian Greeks...well, I've heard Miletus was one of or even the most prolific colonizer overall out of all the Greek cities. An Ionian-dominated, eastward-looking alt-Greece with its center of power being on the other side of the Aegean definitely sounds like an interesting prospect & quite different from OTL, though there's the question of how they're going to effectively hold back/push against the larger Lydian and Persian empires which had been the bane of the Milesians & friends IOTL.

Didn't consider Messene coming out on top over Sparta, avoiding helot-dom and becoming a major player themselves, but that's another interesting angle. Would certainly be one way to revive the prestige & power of Nestor's kingdom of Pylos from back in Mycenaean times.
 

Circle of Willis

Well-known member
Yeah, and make it one in Asia Minor, although that might not cover the definition of polis.
That would be the Milesian option I described, since Miletus seems to have been the strongest of the Asian Greek cities in the Classical Period, famed for philosophers & colonists. It has the problem of being in the path of the Lydians (who historically subjugated it as well as all other Ionian cities before getting rekt by Cyrus) and later the Persians though.

An Ionian League led by Miletus that's managed to somehow hold off the Lydians (thereby also avoiding other disasters, like Smyrna getting sacked by their king Alyattes and never recovering until the Hellenistic period) & Persians seems like it could be a formidable player in the Aegean, maybe strong enough to move the center of the Greek world across the sea without the Greco-Persian Wars (as we know them, at least) devastating Ionia and decisively putting Athens in ascendancy. Taking the Milesian colonies into account they could also certainly project power all around the Bosphorus & the Black Sea.

The question is, of course, how to get there. The Lydians were pretty damn powerful compared to their neighbors IIRC, the Achaemenids even more-so by the time Cyrus got near Ionia...
 

Agent23

Ни шагу назад!
That would be the Milesian option I described, since Miletus seems to have been the strongest of the Asian Greek cities in the Classical Period, famed for philosophers & colonists. It has the problem of being in the path of the Lydians (who historically subjugated it as well as all other Ionian cities before getting rekt by Cyrus) and later the Persians though.

An Ionian League led by Miletus that's managed to somehow hold off the Lydians (thereby also avoiding other disasters, like Smyrna getting sacked by their king Alyattes and never recovering until the Hellenistic period) & Persians seems like it could be a formidable player in the Aegean, maybe strong enough to move the center of the Greek world across the sea without the Greco-Persian Wars (as we know them, at least) devastating Ionia and decisively putting Athens in ascendancy. Taking the Milesian colonies into account they could also certainly project power all around the Bosphorus & the Black Sea.

The question is, of course, how to get there. The Lydians were pretty damn powerful compared to their neighbors IIRC, the Achaemenids even more-so by the time Cyrus got near Ionia...
Yeah, that was the one that caused the Greco-Persian war, correct?
 

TheRomanSlayer

Unipolarity is for Subhuman Trogdolytes
PC: Russian 1905 Revolution Goes the Xinhai Route

How could the 1905 Revolution in Russia go out of control to the point where we would see an earlier collapse of Tsarist rule? Would a larger Russian defeat at the hands of Japan do the trick (as in more territorial losses), or an ethnic conflict gone out of control? Regarding the latter, there may have been several examples of how the pogroms against the Jewish minority would have escalated, or how Jewish self defense groups would arm themselves to defend their community against the rampaging Black Hundred hordes.
 

ATP

Well-known member
It is more perspective, and we do not have a different term for 'Rus' and Russians ourselves, this Ruthenia thing stinks of westerners not being able to pronounce it.
I mean, there is a reason why Mute is used as an ethnonym for Kraut. :sneaky:
And if you look at people like Bohdan Khmelnytsky, well he saw himself as the rightful ruler of the Rus, nowhere was he mentioning Ruthenians, IIRC.

Anyways, me trying not to start a flame war, time to write some actual ideas.

1. Bulgarians manage to evade the disastrous degradation in relations with Byzantium in the late 10th century, we manage to Christianize and assimilate the Serbian, Zetan and other Slavic tribes on the Balkans while holding to and expanding our positions north of the Danube.

Byzantium is far less inclined to to give the early Rus what they want and even if they come around we beat the shit out of Sviatoslav when/if he drags his ass, as he put it, "away from the mosquito infested bog that is Kiev and closer to true civilization" , and we gradually expand to the North-East and Christianize the Slavic tribes that would have made up Kievan Rus.
Bonus points if we eventually find a way to assimilate the other Bulgaria and resist better the attacks of the Mongols.

This would of course require some type of very turbulent situation in Byzantium for about 100 years, preferably them being distracted by the Arabs/other Turkic tribes.
If Byzantine do not cumberstomp you,and mongols never come...plausible,but you have to fight with hungarians for it - remember,that was strong hungarians pagan tribe on steppe there !
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
Corinth was definitely one of the cities I was thinking of, other than Argos. What do you think a Corinthian hegemony might look like? IIRC the Corinthians' classical reputation was one of wealth, on account of their control over Isthmian commerce, and of luxurious degeneracy on account of their Temple of Aphrodite & its employees (of course, whether this is actually fair or not is up in the air, as is usual when discussing stereotypes).

They were certainly the most mercantile of the lot (and their attitudes would feed into animonity against Sparta later; indeed, it's generally held that Sparta to some extent considered Athens the lesser evil, and that's why they ensured that Corinth couldn't have Athens razed). While some of the various tales were no doubt exaggerated, Corinth was known for a certain degree of hedonism-- or we might say, a "liberal" attitude.

All of which suggests to me that Corinth, as hegemon of Greece, would be fairly (if not very) hands-off, basically under the assumption that anything that doesn't harm the economic interests of Corinth and/or the stability of the region is fine with them. The ascent of a more trade-oriented, "new wealth" type of society/culture is the likely outcome. This would be the Corinthian "third path", next to Athenian democracy and civic pride (which has been showed to fail) and Spartan aristocracy and militarism (the other remaining path).

This has shades of Carthage-versus-Rome, but for my money (if you're Corinthian; or blood, if you're Spartan-- strike whichever isn't applicable), I'd say that Sparta was less flexible than Rome, and Corinth was less likely to pinch pennies than the Carthaginian elite, in case of a real war. So I think that if it came down to it, a Corithinian league defending a (for lack of a better word) more "capitalist" future for Greece would have a pretty good chance, against the Spartan-led reactionary faction.

It would be a rather different path for Greece. They might establish a pretty good working relationship with the Phoenicians and Carthaginians. Going by the nature of the trade networks involved, they can all profit from a degree of co-operation.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Corinth was definitely one of the cities I was thinking of, other than Argos. What do you think a Corinthian hegemony might look like? IIRC the Corinthians' classical reputation was one of wealth, on account of their control over Isthmian commerce, and of luxurious degeneracy on account of their Temple of Aphrodite & its employees (of course, whether this is actually fair or not is up in the air, as is usual when discussing stereotypes).

Argos was the other one I had in mind, since it was Sparta's main rival ahead of Athens and came close to beating the Spartans overall IIRC. Don't rightly know what an Argive hegemony would look like though, or even what a victorious Argos might be. My understanding is that the Argives established the democratic government which they were known to have for much of the Classical Period only after getting beat to Hades & back by the Spartans, not before, although I guess they could still do so at some point after a crushing victory instead if they wanted to.

They were certainly the most mercantile of the lot (and their attitudes would feed into animonity against Sparta later; indeed, it's generally held that Sparta to some extent considered Athens the lesser evil, and that's why they ensured that Corinth couldn't have Athens razed). While some of the various tales were no doubt exaggerated, Corinth was known for a certain degree of hedonism-- or we might say, a "liberal" attitude.

All of which suggests to me that Corinth, as hegemon of Greece, would be fairly (if not very) hands-off, basically under the assumption that anything that doesn't harm the economic interests of Corinth and/or the stability of the region is fine with them. The ascent of a more trade-oriented, "new wealth" type of society/culture is the likely outcome. This would be the Corinthian "third path", next to Athenian democracy and civic pride (which has been showed to fail) and Spartan aristocracy and militarism (the other remaining path).

This has shades of Carthage-versus-Rome, but for my money (if you're Corinthian; or blood, if you're Spartan-- strike whichever isn't applicable), I'd say that Sparta was less flexible than Rome, and Corinth was less likely to pinch pennies than the Carthaginian elite, in case of a real war. So I think that if it came down to it, a Corithinian league defending a (for lack of a better word) more "capitalist" future for Greece would have a pretty good chance, against the Spartan-led reactionary faction.

It would be a rather different path for Greece. They might establish a pretty good working relationship with the Phoenicians and Carthaginians. Going by the nature of the trade networks involved, they can all profit from a degree of co-operation.

Me, a fan of mercantile empires:

nancy-pelosi.gif
 

ATP

Well-known member
They were certainly the most mercantile of the lot (and their attitudes would feed into animonity against Sparta later; indeed, it's generally held that Sparta to some extent considered Athens the lesser evil, and that's why they ensured that Corinth couldn't have Athens razed). While some of the various tales were no doubt exaggerated, Corinth was known for a certain degree of hedonism-- or we might say, a "liberal" attitude.

All of which suggests to me that Corinth, as hegemon of Greece, would be fairly (if not very) hands-off, basically under the assumption that anything that doesn't harm the economic interests of Corinth and/or the stability of the region is fine with them. The ascent of a more trade-oriented, "new wealth" type of society/culture is the likely outcome. This would be the Corinthian "third path", next to Athenian democracy and civic pride (which has been showed to fail) and Spartan aristocracy and militarism (the other remaining path).

This has shades of Carthage-versus-Rome, but for my money (if you're Corinthian; or blood, if you're Spartan-- strike whichever isn't applicable), I'd say that Sparta was less flexible than Rome, and Corinth was less likely to pinch pennies than the Carthaginian elite, in case of a real war. So I think that if it came down to it, a Corithinian league defending a (for lack of a better word) more "capitalist" future for Greece would have a pretty good chance, against the Spartan-led reactionary faction.

It would be a rather different path for Greece. They might establish a pretty good working relationship with the Phoenicians and Carthaginians. Going by the nature of the trade networks involved, they can all profit from a degree of co-operation.
I once read/forget where,as usual/,that phoenicians,and later Carthafe,had 500-years war with greeks over who get power over sea.Started about 800BC.

So,Corinth probably still have war with them - precisely becouse they were mercantile empire.

Although,they could save their Tarsis allies - city of Tarsis in Spain fought phoenicians and was destroyed by Carthage with all greek cities there.
In your TL it could survive.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
‘AHC: Axis Powers Outproduce The Allies In WWII’.

Would probably require that there be more Axis Powers to start with, such as Stalinist Russia buddying up with Hitler in a more permanent alliance (or something like that). Or, maybe the US stays out of the war altogether, so that it never lends its supreme industrial might to the Allies.
 

Bassoe

Well-known member
‘AHC: Axis Powers Outproduce The Allies In WWII’.

Would probably require that there be more Axis Powers to start with, such as Stalinist Russia buddying up with Hitler in a more permanent alliance (or something like that). Or, maybe the US stays out of the war altogether, so that it never lends its supreme industrial might to the Allies.
Or you could keep Axis production rates the same but sabotage the Allies. The Americans live with a ticking time bomb on their continent which could remove them as a serious geopolitical contender at any point if it ever detonated.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Or you could keep Axis production rates the same but sabotage the Allies. The Americans live with a ticking time bomb on their continent which could remove them as a serious geopolitical contender at any point if it ever detonated.

Was thinking something other than that, friend. As in, making different choices that are within the control of human actors.

Really, your goofy habit of bringing things back to doomsdaying is tiring. If you’re too single-minded to discuss the subject on its own terms or answer the question in the spirit in which it was asked, then I’m not interested in engaging with you.

Learn proper social interaction before opening your mouth, please. Because your current posts are vaguely ChatGPT-esque instead of something composed by a well-adjusted human adult — as is your tendency not to explain yourself when I repeatedly call you out on it. :cautious:
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Anyway, ‘ATL Cuisine And Culinary Practices’.

Compared to war, culture, and geopolitics, food and food preparation tends to be overlooked in AH circles. That said, butterflies would no doubt apply to food, too, thanks to differences in tastes, recipes, and ingredients depending on supply chains and what’s locally available.
 

Batrix2070

RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
Anyway, ‘ATL Cuisine And Culinary Practices’.

Compared to war, culture, and geopolitics, food and food preparation tends to be overlooked in AH circles. That said, butterflies would no doubt apply to food, too, thanks to differences in tastes, recipes, and ingredients depending on supply chains and what’s locally available.
Without World War II and 50 years of communism, Polish cuisine would be like French cuisine only with lots of spices ala India.

Thanks to communism and its problems which it heroically overcomes although they do not occur in any other regime. All of the old Polish cuisine, was optimized around the most common food ingredients available in that great system. Which de facto killed it.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Without World War II and 50 years of communism, Polish cuisine would be like French cuisine only with lots of spices ala India.

Thanks to communism and its problems which it heroically overcomes although they do not occur in any other regime. All of the old Polish cuisine, was optimized around the most common food ingredients available in that great system. Which de facto killed it.

Don’t suppose you could be more specific?

That is, give examples of which food items would be different, as well as what kinda of tastes and culinary styles would prevail in ATL compared to OTL. Might also help to specify the exact POD, too, as a world with no World War II could result from anything ranging from a more conciliatory Treaty of Versailles in 1919, to Britain and France calling Hitler’s bluff early before moving in to crush Germany in ’38 instead of ’39.

Otherwise, I guess you have a point about wars burning up farmland and supply chains, as well as Communism fucking over every aspect of life for those forced to live under it as long as you Eastern Europeans have. Far more extreme example than most, but I recall mention of how Cambodian Kampot Pepper almost went extinct under the Khmer Rouge, with returning farmers who had fled only returning to restore the vines after Pol Pot had been deposed. Have also seen mentions of all the recipes and traditional culinary wisdom that got wiped out alongside all the chefs, farmers, and elders who perished in Pol Pot’s purges. :(
 

Batrix2070

RON/PLC was a wonderful country.
Don’t suppose you could be more specific?
Simply put, any more advanced dishes that required imported spices, meats other than pig or chicken and other ingredients not naturally found in Poland simply disappeared. Because there was physically no way to make them.

Meat was scarce and and when it did occur it was of hopeless quality, and it was always the parts that could be filled with a more available item. (Think of it as using corn syrup as a complement to sugar).

Of fish, what has survived is Carp, today a common fish on Christmas Eve. But before the war, this was not the case, only one region had carp as such a fish. Preference was given to catfish, eels or zander. The carp itself appeared because it is easy to raise and undemanding so it was difficult to botch it under the communist system.

Viennese pork chop, today a staple meat dish and widely traditional. But it only arrived in the interwar period on a wider scale and gained popularity after the war as an easy-to-prepare dish.

Under communism, eating ceased to be a pleasure and only a physical need to be satisfied. All that mattered was what one could eat and not whether it tasted good. Well, and whether it could be mass-produced.

edit.
Before the war, Pork was a less preferred meat, preferring Beef, Lamb and Veal and even something like Horsemeat.
Today, Pork and Chicken reign indivisibly. Because it was easier to produce, the other kinds of meat have gone into oblivion.

Heck, there were even crayfish being eaten! Today it's a quirk, a forgotten legacy but before the war it was a well-known dish even among peasants.(Though to be fair, it was the result of communist-style industrialization, which so polluted Polish rivers that the native species of crayfish, almost died out. Attempts were made to remedy this by importing two other crayfish, one Asian and one American, but both not only are not edible, they carry diseases that kill Polish crayfish.
 
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