Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

Cherico

Well-known member


Well I’ve got egg on my face now. I’ll admit I didn’t realize just how far back the Ukrainians had pushed back the Russians. I was of the mind that it was only a few miles in a handful of locations. Guess it’s what I get for not paying attention.


The ukranians have over perfomed more then anyone expected and the russians have under performed by that same number.

Dont feel bad no one saw this coming.
 

mrttao

Well-known member
Psihokek was functionally claiming that all the sources throwing up data he didn't like were government propagandists, paid to specifically produce propaganda.
False. see
Most OSINTers are paid by one or other side, so you are still devouring propaganda
by one side or another != "saying things I dislike"
He is very clearly and very explicitly stated that it is propaganda regardless of which side it comes from. The stuff he likes is propaganda, the stuff he dislikes is propaganda. All sides are propaganda. This is what he said, and it is true.

But you you have been on a mission to try to dismiss what he said by twisting it repeatedly into "only people who say things you dislike" and "he dismisses all info that doesn't say what he likes" and other things that come straight from your imagination and not from anything Psihokekec actually said.
 

AmosTrask

Well-known member
Well I guess Syria wants to fight on Russia's side. Several Shahed 136 drones were recovered with intact motherboards. Guess who they're from? US chips sold to Huawei, on Iranian motherboards inside a Syrian suicide drone. We really have to cut China out. The computers on board are the most expensive component of the drone apart from the payload. The bloody things are hand made. Some parts have hand tool marks bloody village forge level work with hammer and hot cutting. They repurposed a common 5 Hp lawn mower to power a drone 1000 km. With motorcycle engines for the larger Shahed 191

Necessity my friends. The great Mother of Invention.
 
Last edited:

Cherico

Well-known member
you can't cut china out when you are manufacturing your stuff in factories in china.

um man, Mexican labor was cheaper and more highly skilled then chinese labor before covid. The cost of chinese labor was going up for years before this because the cheap labor is running out. And when you add up all the costs? Its actually cheaper to have a factory in the us or mexico then china right now because of changing tech.

The only reason a lot of companies haven't bolted was innertia, which is going away as china locks down everything.
 

mrttao

Well-known member
um man, Mexican labor was cheaper and more highly skilled then chinese labor before covid. The cost of chinese labor was going up for years before this because the cheap labor is running out. And when you add up all the costs? Its actually cheaper to have a factory in the us or mexico then china right now because of changing tech.

The only reason a lot of companies haven't bolted was innertia, which is going away as china locks down everything.
I think you misunderstood me. I am not saying that it is impossible to open factories anywhere but china.
I am saying that currently all of the western goods are produced in factories in china.

If you want to cut out china you first have to start building new factories. once you have those factories built, then you can cut out china.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
I think you misunderstood me. I am not saying that it is impossible to open factories anywhere but china.
I am saying that currently all of the western goods are produced in factories in china.

If you want to cut out china you first have to start building new factories. once you have those factories built, then you can cut out china.

that process has already started and it will take awhile to finish.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
So you stopped being informed about realities on the ground because people weren't humoring the bullshit you have spouted and called you out.

Most of the pro-Ru people in the political thread seem not to like to see the actual realities on the ground in the frontlines, because it is so very easy to call out their bullshit there and link to mountains of evidence that support the Ukrainian side and debunk the Ru side.
Said "bullshit" being what I saw as the causes and effects of the Maidan coup, that you yourself agreed with me on. You see, this is what I'm talking about; once you start championing a cause your vision tunnels to the point of absurdity, and you start lashing out at people who disagree with or criticize you.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
by one side or another != "saying things I dislike"
He is very clearly and very explicitly stated that it is propaganda regardless of which side it comes from. The stuff he likes is propaganda, the stuff he dislikes is propaganda. All sides are propaganda. This is what he said, and it is true.

No, it isn't true.

Not all information is propaganda.

And the reason I focused on him discarding information he doesn't like, is because he's using that to get out of actually needing to mount a meaningful defense of his position.

Just saying 'literally everything you can get on this subject is trustworthy' is not an argument, it's trying to claim that no meaningful argument can be made, so there's no need for him to defend his position.

Which is a bunch of post-modernist BS.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Said "bullshit" being what I saw as the causes and effects of the Maidan coup, that you yourself agreed with me on. You see, this is what I'm talking about; once you start championing a cause your vision tunnels to the point of absurdity, and you start lashing out at people who disagree with or criticize you.
You are still hung up on using the Maidan to excuse and reason away Putin's insanity, greed, and malice, while ignoring everything else that has happened in Ukraine since, it seems.

I know what you got rightly called out for and what you ran away from that thread to avoid dealing with, and that you care more about people 'being nice' about arguing, than about facts on the ground, including the mountains of Russian war crimes against Ukraine.

You are not going to lecture me about 'tunnel vision', when you are the one suffering from it.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Said "bullshit" being what I saw as the causes and effects of the Maidan coup, that you yourself agreed with me on. You see, this is what I'm talking about; once you start championing a cause your vision tunnels to the point of absurdity, and you start lashing out at people who disagree with or criticize you.
The core cause of Maidan coup and all that followed is that the clique running Russia is not very good at setting up a well functioning country. Even their military is a mess, and that's something they actually care about functioning, as in they are using it at least once a decade and need it to work. Imagine how they run all the things they care less about. This goes double for running their vassal states. Of course people got pissed finally and wanted new management. Would you want to live in a country like this or its vassal state? Here you have why Ukrainians supported a coup to stop being one. Are you going to tell them to suck it up because not doing so will hurt the feelings of Putin, his friends, and Russian imperial irredentists?
 

Lord Sovereign

Well-known member


Well I’ve got egg on my face now. I’ll admit I didn’t realize just how far back the Ukrainians had pushed back the Russians. I was of the mind that it was only a few miles in a handful of locations. Guess it’s what I get for not paying attention.


An easy error to make. You aren’t the first and you won’t be the first.

But it does take a big man to admit when he’s wrong. Especially in an epoch where people stake their pride, honour, and reputation on sodding social media of all things...
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
You are still hung up on using the Maidan to excuse and reason away Putin's insanity, greed, and malice, while ignoring everything else that has happened in Ukraine since, it seems.

I know what you got rightly called out for and what you ran away from that thread to avoid dealing with, and that you care more about people 'being nice' about arguing, than about facts on the ground, including the mountains of Russian war crimes against Ukraine.

You are not going to lecture me about 'tunnel vision', when you are the one suffering from it.
I'm really not; the Maidan coup falls far short of an adequate excuse for what Putin/Russia has done in Ukraine. If they had gone in immediately after the coup, kept casualties to an absolute minimum, and avoided targeting the civilian population entirely? Then maybe; but that's not what's happened. That aside though, even back then my intent wasn't to say that the coup was an excuse; rather, it was an explanation (as the tail end of decades of NATO expansion, right up to Russia's border) for why they felt threatened, and did what they did. Much like how your post in another thread about how Japan was screwed in Versailles was an explanation for why they did what they did afterwards, but not an excuse.

Fact of the matter is, the facts on the ground were irrelevant to what I was talking about; and there weren't that many to be had in the early days of the conflict anyways, unless you were willing to trust either the Russian or Ukrainian government's word as to what was happening. Which I did not. By the time what was happening become clearer, I had already long since been cussed out for arguing the nuances of why the conflict was happening, pointing out America's/the West in general's culpability in creating it, and not immediately jumping on the "Putin/Russia is Satan, and everyone/anything who opposes/is done to oppose him/them is automatically justified forever" bandwagon.

You know me Bacle; or at least, you ought to by now. I've always believed that the moment you start attacking someone personally, that's it; you've lost the argument. Because at that point? It's not about the argument anymore; it's about you versus them.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Well I guess Syria wants to fight on Russia's side. Several Shahed 136 drones were recovered with intact motherboards. Guess who they're from? US chips sold to Huawei, on Iranian motherboards inside a Syrian suicide drone. We really have to cut China out. The computers on board are the most expensive component of the drone apart from the payload. The bloody things are hand made. Some parts have hand tool marks bloody village forge level work with hammer and hot cutting. They repurposed a common 5 Hp lawn mower to power a drone 1000 km. With motorcycle engines for the larger Shahed 191

Necessity my friends. The great Mother of Invention.
Iranian, not Syrian drone. Syria just gets them as assistance from Iran. Just like Russia :D.
They have even licensed these pitiful things. A year ago no one would even imagine such humiliation of Russian aerospace industry.
Shahed-136 one-way attack drones (also known as kamikaze drones) – effectively slow, low-cost cruise missiles — have been supplied by Iran, but have been given a paint job and rebranded as Geran-2 by the Russians. And they are doing real damage.
 
Last edited:

Bassoe

Well-known member
Possible outcomes as I see it:
  • Russia loses the conventional war. Putin, who tied his reputation to winning looks weak to his compatriots and is assassinated, then posthumously blamed for everything so trade can be restored. Ukrainian victory.
  • Russia is losing the conventional war until Putin, knowing the personal consequences of failure, uses nukes to win by obliterating Ukrainian forces. NATO does nothing out of realpolitik realization that while not retaliating proves nuclear blackmail works and causes mass proliferation and an increased risk of potential nuclear war in the future, retaliating causes definite nuclear war right now. Russian victory.
  • Russia is losing the conventional war until Putin, knowing the personal consequences of failure, uses nukes to win by obliterating Ukrainian forces. NATO retaliates. Everyone dies. Mutual defeat.
  • Putin is assassinated by one of his underlings, either an oligarch whose personal wealth was being destroyed by the sanctions or a military commander who feared they'd be the next victim of Putin's loyalty purges, who proceeds to declare themselves the new Russian leader, then end the war and posthumously blame everything on their predecessor so trade can be restored. Ukrainian victory.
  • NATO's unity is broken as economic collapse from sanctions cause the election of virulently anti-American right-wing populists in Europe on platforms of restoring affordable gas and blaming the yanks for blowing up their pipelines, flooding them with migrants from their wars, demanding they give up their colonial empires after WW2, unwanted missionary efforts to convert them to their new state religion, etc. Europe is no longer assisting Ukrainian forces or allowing America to use them as a staging ground to do so. Russian victory.
 

mrttao

Well-known member
No, it isn't true.

Not all information is propaganda.
facepalm. Are you even capable of making an argument that isn't a strawman?
This is getting ridiculous.

The statement was not "all information is propaganda"
The statement was "most sources who are people who work a full time job spreading information are propagandists".
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread

Top