Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

Bacle said:

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Reminds me of the strange informal alliance Poland had with Japan before and in WW2.

Even Lukashenko is throwing shade on Putin now.

LordsFire said:

Do you actually have anything to substantiate this

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A bit of a baffling question but here you go.

Inedia (Latin for 'fasting') or breatharianism (/brɛˈθɛəriənɪzəm/) is the claimed ability for a person to live without consuming food, and in some cases water. It is a deadly pseudoscience and several adherents of these practices have died from starvation or dehydration.[1][2] Multiple cases where this practice was attempted have resulted in failure or death.[2][3][4]

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A citation for the fact that humans do indeed need to eat food. And cannot subsist entirely on "good feeling"

mrttao said:

A bit of a baffling question but here you go.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inedia

How many days can you survive without food or water? – AnswersAll

answers-all.com

A citation for the fact that humans do indeed need to eat food. And cannot subsist entirely on "good feeling"

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I wasn't asking if people need to eat.

I was asking if he had any proof that the OSINT crowd are all/mostly shills in the pay of various governments.

LordsFire said:

I wasn't asking if people need to eat.

I was asking if he had any proof that the OSINT crowd are all/mostly shills in the pay of various governments.

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A mathematical proof is an inferential argument for a mathematical statement, showing that the stated assumptions logically guarantee the conclusion. The argument may use other previously established statements, such as theorems; but every proof can, in principle, be constructed using only certain basic or original assumptions known as axioms,

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Ironclad logic is good enough for mathematics. It is also good enough for physics, biology, and all other forms of science.

So which of his axioms are you disputing? you now said that you concede the axiom that "people need to eat food".
That is good, we are making some progress.

Cherico said:

There is actually a pretty good chance that the Russians can win through shear numbers alone.

It won't be fun of course but they could win that way, the only way this ends is if Ukraine makes the butchers bill too large.

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Sheer numbers did not secure a victory for China in the Korean War, only a stalemate.

AmosTrask said:

That word has an odd translation. Female Bitch. Does that mean that in Russian there is a counter word for male bitch?

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Khyulo is pretty close. It means Dickhead.

WolfBear said:

Sheer numbers did not secure a victory for China in the Korean War, only a stalemate.



Khyulo is pretty close. It means Dickhead.

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I give it a 50/50 chance of working.

But after that the Russians get to deal with the gurella war supplied by western powers that know that the minute the conflict ends their will most likely be an attack on a nato member.

Because Ukraine is the midpoint of Russias wars not the end.

Cherico said:

I give it a 50/50 chance of working.

But after that the Russians get to deal with the gurella war supplied by western powers that know that the minute the conflict ends their will most likely be an attack on a nato member.

Because Ukraine is the midpoint of Russias wars not the end.

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That's only true to a point. The US army in Korea was green. Under-equipped, and badly prepared for a modern war. They were stuck with WW2 equipment, green recruits and a command staff trying to adapt to modern technology and having to wait while using old tech and tactics. They really were not ready for a real war. That's the situation Russia is currently in now.

No one sane believes Ukraine is the objective. Just last week Crimea Oblast was announced by Putin on State TV the map included Kharhiv Oblast, Luhansk, Donetsk, Crimea, Kherson Oblast, Odessa Oblast, Transnistrea People's Republic, Eastern Moldava, and parts of the Romanian border with Ukraine. Those Mokholi arseholes are still waving "Straight to Berlin" and "Straight to London" in old 1940's USSR hammer and sickle banners. I don't trust those Russian asses a bit. They need to be crushed in Ukraine before they can come after the rest of us.

They have a numbers advantage on paper. They don't have the uniforms, food or even basic gear because the generals and contractors lied to skim to the money. Their supply records declared they had the uniforms and kit to equip a million men. But it turns out that was a lie, the majority of depots had sold off old stock to surplus and pocketed the money for new supplies. Morale is low. Look up the Russian practice of Rule of the Grandfathers that is prevalent in the army. Especially against conscripts, you think your country has a hazing problem? It's an open fact that some conscripts are being pimped out by senior members and officers. If you're gay and the others find out, you're going to die in a "Training Accident" or you went "AWOL." Never to be heard of againt. I used to think this was shit from the bad Soviet era, turns out it's still happening in Russia.

Muscovite Barbarians!

The Kerch Strait Bridge Bombing Ticks us Closer to Midnight and Armageddon

that said Styx did get the Cuban Missile crisis kind of wrong. The depth charges used by the US navy on the Russian sub were specifically designed to disable subs and bring them to the surface as opposed to destroying them. So I don't think there would've been the same danger of the sub exploding with nuke onboard, or something like that anyway

DarthOne said:

The Kerch Strait Bridge Bombing Ticks us Closer to Midnight and Armageddon

that said Styx did get the Cuban Missile crisis kind of wrong. The depth charges used by the US navy on the Russian sub were specifically designed to disable subs and bring them to the surface as opposed to destroying them. So I don't think there would've been the same danger of the sub exploding with nuke onboard, or something like that anyway

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Meh, just repeating scare talk for silly westerners and the ridiculous "holding back" meme and the feint meme to make the point stick.
Paraphrasing general Harris, the Russians entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them.

Frankly, psy-ops and nuclear scaremongering are the only card Russia can play repeatedly and cheaply that the West has no defense nor direct counterpart to, so smart of them to abuse that.
Imagine the pant shitting in the West if, for example, CIA poisoned some FSB persona in Moscow with a fucking chemical weapon, collateral'd some random dude, and then got caught with video evidence.
But wait, that's exactly what Russia did in UK... and nothing major happened in the end!
The West and non-democratic powers are definitely playing an asymmetric game here.

Cope and seethe, vatniks, cope and seethe.

mrttao said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_proof

Ironclad logic is good enough for mathematics. It is also good enough for physics, biology, and all other forms of science.

So which of his axioms are you disputing? you now said that you concede the axiom that "people need to eat food".
That is good, we are making some progress.

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...Are you really trying to claim that 'being paid by the government to propagandize' is the only possible way for people who analyze information coming out of intelligence to live?

That isn't 'Ironclad logic,' that is 'dogmatic refusal to focus accept anything you disagree with.'

Let's look at some possibilities, shall we?

1. Hobbyists. A lot of hobbyists go into this stuff because they enjoy it/are fascinated by it. They don't get paid at all, they have a day job/welfare.
2. Literal 'parents basement' types. Plenty of 4channers and the like fall into this category. They've failed to be productive members of society, but out of either permissiveness or genuine compassion, their parents or another member of their family support them, and they have tons of free time.
3. Crowdfunding. Perun is probably the most salient example for the Ukraine war, but plenty of people just post their analysis, then get money thrown at them to support more analysis being posted.

Generally speaking, the people who publicly post their OSINT analysis probably fall into these three categories. Can I definitively state that's true? No, because I don't know those people, and I haven't tried to run background checks on them or the like.

But then, neither has Psihokek, has he? Or if he is, he certainly isn't sharing the information on it, which is what I asked for.

Practically speaking, there probably are a fair number of paid shills out there as well. We know China does this all the time, Russia does it at least some, and I have little doubt some western governments have a budget for this too. This is one of the reasons you shouldn't just uncritically accept a given source of information.

However, by the same token, you don't just uncritically reject a source of information either, especially not just because you don't like what it's saying.

LordsFire said:

...Are you really trying to claim that 'being paid by the government to propagandize' is the only possible way for people who analyze information coming out of intelligence to live?

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This is a strawman.
What he said, you refuted, and I repeated... is that the vast majority of people who analyze information full time have to be paid by someone.

You might be able to find one or two super wealthy who do it as a pure hobby. But the vast majority are not going to have that luxury and will instead find a way to monetize their labor.

That someone who pays could be a variety of different interest groups. Your govt, enemy govt, corporations, political parties, etc.

LordsFire said:

3. Crowdfunding.

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... so, they are getting paid?
you were just arguing they don't get paid.

crowdfunded stuff has to strictly adhere to their funders expectations or they lose their funding.

LordsFire said:

1. Hobbyists. A lot of hobbyists go into this stuff because they enjoy it/are fascinated by it. They don't get paid at all, they have a day job/welfare.

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The explicit argument is about the people who explicitly do it 40+ hours a week. that is not a hobby but a full time job.

recall this:

PsihoKekec said:

Officially they are not, but plenty take money from ''sponsors''. Let's face it, people are spending well over 40 hours per week doing this, so they are unlikely to refuse a chance to monetize it

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Bacle said:

Or some people just find OSINT work a fun hobby, because it lets them put that super-autism to use in screwing over Russia's day.

A lot of people get warm glows in their chest when they know they are screwing over Russia's day, pay or no pay.

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Hobbyists exist, certainly.
But the argument stemmed from the above. which seems to clearly discuss those doing it full time rather than hobbyists
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LordsFire said:

Practically speaking, there probably are a fair number of paid shills out there as well.

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So wait... you thought I was right all along?

mrttao said:

This is a strawman.
What he said, you refuted, and I repeated... is that the vast majority of people who analyze information full time have to be paid by someone.

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Dude...

PsihoKekec said:

propaganda for their side

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He literally said paid to propagandize.

LordsFire said:

However, by the same token, you don't just uncritically reject a source of information either, especially not just because you don't like what it's saying.

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facepalm... and who exactly suggested to do so?
pointing out that you should be aware that most stuff online is propaganda for one side or another (and explicitly noting that all sides do it) is not in any way shape or form "reject it because you don't like what it is saying".
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ShadowsOfParadox said:

Dude...

He literally said paid to propagandize.

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Yes?
paid and bought for "independent research" is called propaganda.

Russia considering confiscating T-90's meant for a sale to India.

mrttao said:

paid and bought for "independent research" is called propaganda.

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...So because they get paid, regardless of who pays them or why or how, it's propaganda.

Congrats, you just rendered a word meaningless. Because by that definition there is nothing that ISN'T propaganda. Lovely definition, definitely very useful.

Oh and, besides ignoring that your definition of propaganda is patently absurd there's this lovely bit you apparently decided to ignore.

PsihoKekec said:

To be fair USA is several leagues ahead of Russians in propaganda war, in their Middle East wars they learned a lot about controlling media narrative in both MSM and internet, while Russians are still mentally in the age of Pravda.

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So yeah, explicitly the argument was "it's propaganda being paid for by the government"

mrttao said:

is not in any way shape or form "reject it because you don't like what it is saying".

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As far as this goes... maybe not, but if you follow the quote chain, that's very much what is being said in context Have the critical quotes

PsihoKekec said:

And that's different from you how exactly? You absolutely refuse to consider any source that is not approved by State Department and uncritically accept these sources, no matter how much they lie. Don't hate your mirror image just because it moved it's left hand when you moved your right.

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Bacle said:

No, I actually look through sources and get most of the stuff I post from OSINT accounts, and don't give a damn what the Deep State Dept thinks of them.

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PsihoKekec said:

Most OSINTers are paid by one or other side, so you are still devouring propaganda. I reckon you are only following the pro-State Department Ukraine ones.

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So yeah, context matters dude.

mrttao said:

Snip.

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I don't even know what kind of point you are trying to make, but I'll clarify the point I was making:

Psihokek was functionally claiming that all the sources throwing up data he didn't like were government propagandists, paid to specifically produce propaganda.

That's a very large claim to make, and he has provided zero evidence for it. Conversely, there are demonstrably a lot of people out there who do OSINT analysis who are not on the government payroll, and what they produce paints a very bleak picture for Russia.

That's my point.