Israel ðŸ‡®ðŸ‡± State of Israel Thread

GoldRanger

May the power protect you
Founder
*Not going to bother defining this for space and time, presume it's many pages of lawyerese and covers actual major military operations like rockets, bombs, and the like while not causing the whole thing to fall apart from a single rogue gunman exercising a heckler's veto.

In the case of the lone gunman I'd say that the Palestinians should be constricted from inciting to violence or paying the families of accomplished terrorists. I'd go even further and demand that they criminalize hate speech against Israel and Jews. Yeah yeah, freedom of speech blah blah: sovereignty/military/free speech, pick two.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
One of the issues with Israel giving up part of Jerusalem is that they have very little reason to think that any area they give up won't have mortars and missile launchers planted on it an hour later, and they don't want the rest of Jerusalem under fire at point-blank range.

If it's been a decade since the last mortar/rocket/missile attack on Israel, then they can start talking about handing over land so close to major population and religious centers. Actually, my general feeling is that this would be a better path to peace than the usual insta-broken treaties. Rather than "We pinkie-promise not to shoot rockets anymore if you give us all this land" reverse things and have Israel promise to give them the land if Palestine can go twenty years without a major terror attack*.

*Not going to bother defining this for space and time, presume it's many pages of lawyerese and covers actual major military operations like rockets, bombs, and the like while not causing the whole thing to fall apart from a single rogue gunman exercising a heckler's veto.
That actually sounds reasonable. If the Palestinians can show they can be peaceful for 10 years then at the end of that period they would get the parts of Jerusalem that are Muslim including the Muslim quarter.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
In the case of the lone gunman I'd say that the Palestinians should be constricted from inciting to violence or paying the families of accomplished terrorists. I'd go even further and demand that they criminalize hate speech against Israel and Jews. Yeah yeah, freedom of speech blah blah: sovereignty/military/free speech, pick two.
Yeah, basically I wanted to head off a pedantic derail that would alternately go "But you only said mortars, what if Palestinians used missiles?" and/or "A single Palestinian criminal with a kitchen knife could overturn it so the treaty's impossible for the poor Palestinians to fulfill."
 

GoldRanger

May the power protect you
Founder
It would require a fundamental change in much of Palestinian Culture for that to be possible. It'd be great if it did, but it's unlikely.
There's also the matter of what they call "a Hudna". They can sign a piece of paper, then curtail attacks for a decade, but after they get full control of their own borders and a green light to build up a military, if they choose to return to terror attacks it would be very, very hard to dislodge them.

Think of Gaza which Hamas has built up into a terror fortress, Israel can bomb them, but to pacify and demilitarize it fully not just a land operation but a full-on conquest is required, and the price in blood is much greater than Israel is willing to make at this point. It wouldn't have been an issue if Israel didn't withdraw in the first place though.

In short, even with 10 years Israel would be justified to mistrust the Palestinians. I don't exactly see a solution here, the problem may simply be intractable. But at least 10 or 20 years delay is much better than current ridiculous demand that Israel simply commits mass suicide.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Making the West Bank part of Jordan again would solve a lot of issues; same with if Egypt decided to do something about Hamas.

Simply deny Iran their proxies any longer by letting other countries Israel trusts take over the areas, and removing the power of the 'Palestinian' Iranian proxy govs entirely. Israel settlers aren't going to fuck with the Jordanian's, who would enforce the new borders, and 'Palestinians' of various ethnicities religions (Christian 'Palestinians' exist), and Jordan/Egypt will protect them from PLO or Hamas retaliation, while also providing basic services in a less corrupt fashion than the existing govs.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
There's also the matter of what they call "a Hudna". They can sign a piece of paper, then curtail attacks for a decade, but after they get full control of their own borders and a green light to build up a military, if they choose to return to terror attacks it would be very, very hard to dislodge them.

Think of Gaza which Hamas has built up into a terror fortress, Israel can bomb them, but to pacify and demilitarize it fully not just a land operation but a full-on conquest is required, and the price in blood is much greater than Israel is willing to make at this point. It wouldn't have been an issue if Israel didn't withdraw in the first place though.

In short, even with 10 years Israel would be justified to mistrust the Palestinians. I don't exactly see a solution here, the problem may simply be intractable. But at least 10 or 20 years delay is much better than current ridiculous demand that Israel simply commits mass suicide.
The reason I specified 20 years was that I believe it would be enough that a Hudna wouldn't work. You'd have an entire generation of Palestinians who grew up never knowing the terror attacks, without the endless forever war surrounding them, and everybody under 40 would know more years of peace than of violence. At that point, trying to restart it would likely not have the widespread support, especially among the youth, that it enjoys now and it would take a much greater effort to get it going again.
 

GoldRanger

May the power protect you
Founder
Making the West Bank part of Jordan again would solve a lot of issues; same with if Egypt decided to do something about Hamas.

Simply deny Iran their proxies any longer by letting other countries Israel trusts take over the areas, and removing the power of the 'Palestinian' Iranian proxy govs entirely. Israel settlers aren't going to fuck with the Jordanian's, who would enforce the new borders, and 'Palestinians' of various ethnicities religions (Christian 'Palestinians' exist), and Jordan/Egypt will protect them from PLO or Hamas retaliation, while also providing basic services in a less corrupt fashion than the existing govs.
Israel would never allow a foreign country to rule over 600,000 Jews, especially countries with which it has a bad history.

Also Israel doesn't fully trust neither Egypt or Jordan.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Israel would never allow a foreign country to rule over 600,000 Jews, especially countries with which it has a bad history.

Also Israel doesn't fully trust neither Egypt or Jordan.
Well, would they be worse than the current situation?

I know the borders would need to be shift and reworked to make sure the Jewish settlements are under Israel control. However Neither Jordan nor Egypt particularly like Iran from what I know, and what we saw in Syria; maybe an overture of trust on this issue could help create a greater anti-Iran coalition in the Mid East.

Not saying it'd be easy, and I'd expect finalization of anything to take years, but we saw with the Abraham Accords that cooperation and peace on the issue is something most parties outside the PLO and Hamas agree in principle on most of the issues.
 

49ersfootball

Well-known member
Israel would never allow a foreign country to rule over 600,000 Jews, especially countries with which it has a bad history.

Also Israel doesn't fully trust neither Egypt or Jordan.
Let's not forget about Israel & Egypt's deep-seated hostility back in the day when Nasser upped the ante against the Israelis.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Israel would never allow a foreign country to rule over 600,000 Jews, especially countries with which it has a bad history.

Also Israel doesn't fully trust neither Egypt or Jordan.

Technically speaking, this 600,000 number can probably be reduced to something like 100,000-150,000 through mutually agreed (or even unilateral) land swaps. Most Israeli settlers live close to the Israeli border, and the rest of them can be evacuated and resettled in Israel if necessary. The Israeli settlements near the Israeli border with stay, obviously; it's those further deeper inside of the West Bank, such as Ariel, that might have to go.

Also, off-topic, but:

 

WolfBear

Well-known member
BTW, @GoldRanger, I have no doubt that virtually any Palestinian would rather embrace and push for a one-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (or a 1.5-state solution, if Gaza is to be excluded) than to embrace the Trump Peace Plan.
 

GoldRanger

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Founder
BTW, @GoldRanger, I have no doubt that virtually any Palestinian would rather embrace and push for a one-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (or a 1.5-state solution, if Gaza is to be excluded) than to embrace the Trump Peace Plan.

And I care because? 1 state is never going to happen regardless of their wishes.

Technically speaking, this 600,000 number can probably be reduced to something like 100,000-150,000 through mutually agreed (or even unilateral) land swaps. Most Israeli settlers live close to the Israeli border, and the rest of them can be evacuated and resettled in Israel if necessary. The Israeli settlements near the Israeli border with stay, obviously; it's those further deeper inside of the West Bank, such as Ariel, that might have to go.

Also, off-topic, but:

Israel almost had a civil war for trying to evacuate 18K so called "settlers". You want to evacuate a "mere" 150K? Forget it.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sotnik
One of the militant groups in Gaza reportedly tried to shoot down an Israeli jet.

 

WolfBear

Well-known member
And I care because? 1 state is never going to happen regardless of their wishes.


Israel almost had a civil war for trying to evacuate 18K so called "settlers". You want to evacuate a "mere" 150K? Forget it.

Even if the West imposes Russia-style sanctions on Israel?

That's 8K settlers, actually. And you're talking about 2005, right? IMHO, Sharon's Gaza withdrawal was one of the best things that he did. 8,000 Jews in a sea of 1.5 million hostile Arabs is not a Jewish presence that's actually worth sustaining; much easier to just evacuate and resettle all of them.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Even if the West imposes Russia-style sanctions on Israel?
And why would we do that?

Seriously, why the hell would we sanction Israel, a major ally of the US and one of our few friends in the ME, over Palestinian's bitching that they don't get to drive the Jews into the sea in the proposed maps?
That's 8K settlers, actually. And you're talking about 2005, right? IMHO, Sharon's Gaza withdrawal was one of the best things that he did. 8,000 Jews in a sea of 1.5 million hostile Arabs is not a Jewish presence that's actually worth sustaining; much easier to just evacuate and resettle all of them.
No, withdrawing from Gaza just let it become the festering, terrorist-filled shithole it is now.

The Palestinians have never negotiated in good faith, which is why Trump's peace plan simply left them out of it and dealt with the nations that actually can be dealt with in semi-good faith.
 

GoldRanger

May the power protect you
Founder
Even if the West imposes Russia-style sanctions on Israel?

Yes. Do you see Russia budging because of these sanctions? Did you see Iran or North Korea budging? Sanctions never work. Even in Israel which is democratic the people would overwhelmingly prefer to live under sanctions than under terrorist Arab rule.

But I'd remind you that the current trend is getting closer to Israel, not the other way around. BDS is being outlawed in many US states and European countries, last year during the fight with Hamas we've seen Israeli flags being raised above European cities and parliaments in sympathy for the first time in history, and there are of course the Abraham accords. Even the leftist Biden with an ultra-leftist VP didn't come down on Israel. It would take a LOT to reverse this trend.

That's 8K settlers, actually. And you're talking about 2005, right? IMHO, Sharon's Gaza withdrawal was one of the best things that he did. 8,000 Jews in a sea of 1.5 million hostile Arabs is not a Jewish presence that's actually worth sustaining; much easier to just evacuate and resettle all of them.

It's one of the worst things he ever did. The removal of all Jewish presence in Gaza has turned it into a fortress of ISIS-like terrorism, fueled by Israel's worst enemies and wielded as a weapon to disturb it's economy whenever they deem fit.
 

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