The Monopoly Men

LordsFire · Nov 5, 2019

Terthna said:
That's not the question you should be asking. What you should be asking is "why are some people benefiting drastically more than others? Particularly ones at the top who, quite frankly, have done nothing to earn a paycheck worth over a hundred times more that someone in the same position would have earned several decades ago, when positions under them in the corporate hierarchy have not experienced such massive exponential growth in earnings?"

The pie has grown, but so has the portion taken by those on top; and expecting those who's slice keeps getting smaller and smaller comparatively to not become resentful, when it's also thanks to their efforts that the pie is bigger than it used to be, is utterly insane.

I don't know. I just take issue with them taking advantage of ways to reduce the money they pay, that they only have access to because of how much money they have. And I know they do this, because we keep hearing about it; and I doubt you're delusional enough to insist that, say, tax havens are not a thing the rich constantly use to avoid paying taxes. I mean; the IRS specifically points out that this is a thing that actually happens, and is frequent enough to be a serious problem.

It'll take about four minutes to get through the section that covers this. The entire video is worth watching though.

Now I'll be perfectly clear. I favor a flat tax rate, that has no exceptions or exemptions whatsoever. Of preference, I'd favor switching entirely over to a sales tax, and then we can just not tax food items, as a form of government pseudo-charity that even small-government types like myself can support. I'd settle for a flat tax with no exceptions though.

That said. Whatever loopholes and legal rigamarole wealthy people use, the fact remains that statistically, they're the only ones paying taxes in the first place.

Great, they're paying accountants and lawyers to keep themselves from having to pay more, but I cannot emphasize this enough:

With statistically few exceptions, only upper-income people are effectively paying taxes at all.

Let's be clear. I personally am one of those exceptions. I have not made enough income to get out of the bottom 20% bracket in my entire life. I might eek up into the second quintile this year, we'll see how I do over the next two months. Yet, I still paid more than 10% in effective total taxes last year, entirely in social security ~medicaid stuff. Further, I have to go through the more complicated (and expensive) process of handling my taxes as someone self-employed, adding a further burden onto myself.

All that said, I still stand firmly on the position of 'If everyone is doing better, why do you care if some are doing even better than others?' The answer is, so long as they're not doing anything illegal/immoral, you shouldn't.

Now to address your direct question:
"why are some people benefiting drastically more than others? "

The answer is simply that those people are by and large working harder. This is not always true, and some people absolutely coast on what they inherited from their parents, and that's rather shameful, but nothing illegal. It's also true that some people at the top of society are very wealthy for very immoral reasons. This is a problem, and I absolutely favor changing legal codes to deal with this, but to those who understand how human psychology, economics, regulatory capture, and such things work, the solution is less taxation and regulation, not more.

The exceptions and those who abuse the system aside though, I can absolutely tell you that the single largest reason most poor people are poor, is they make bad life decisions. I say this as someone who is lower-class, who has lived amongst lower-class people, and watched how they live their lives. In the less-bad cases, it's simply the refusal to show up on time and work even decently hard at a job.

People who show up, work hard, and are smart enough to not let a bad boss take advantage of them, sooner or later almost universally start moving up. Yes, there are some exceptions to that, but you don't re-engineer the whole system for rare exceptions, you help those rare exceptions on an individual basis.

I have seen far too many people who literally cannot hold a night-shift job where all they'd need to do to keep the job, is put their damn phone down when a customer is right in front of them, and handle a transaction. If they goofed off the entire rest of the time, the boss wouldn't be happy, but they'd keep them around because the minimum requirements were being met.

People who show up to work drunk, high, who don't show up because they're drunk or high, people who just don't show up, people who show up and constantly cause problems...

Most of the people who are perpetually stuck in the lower class, are there because they are sabotaging themselves.

Yes, there are people who fall on rough circumstances, but if they keep putting themselves out there, and putting effort in, and are willing to make some sacrifices (such as move out of the area they would prefer to live in to a place with a better job market), they almost universally will get back on their feet and get moving again. Yes, again, you will find some rare exceptions that fall through the cracks, but that will happen in literally any system.

Most people who work comfortable, well-paying upper-middle & upper class jobs? They're there because they work hard. Yes, a lot are also there because parents raised them well, and helped them get through college to get into those jobs, but they keep those jobs and move up through the career path because they work well enough to earn that. And yes, there are exceptions with nepotism, corruption, etc, but those are the exceptions, not the rule.

That's why some people are so much more well-off than others.

And it's the other side of why I think the solution to how much taxes the rich are paying isn't to close loopholes, but to simplify the tax code and cut taxes in the process.

Morphic Tide · Nov 5, 2019

LordsFire said:
The answer is simply that those people are by and large working harder. This is not always true, and some people absolutely coast on what they inherited from their parents, and that's rather shameful, but nothing illegal.

I'd say that most of the upper .5% or so got there not from hard work, but lucky or smart work. For example, current "richest" man alive Jeff Bezos is "rich" because he was simply the earliest guy to get online retail off the ground that didn't go down with the dotcom bust, and also relentlessly smooth-talking investors to allow him to perpetually invest in expansion. Not nearly so much a matter of good product.

A lot of the super-rich are stock money, people who ride the hype train of innovators who get rich off of "firsts" and sub-market domination, alongside what's pretty close to gambling.

Terthna · Nov 5, 2019

LordsFire said:
It'll take about four minutes to get through the section that covers this. The entire video is worth watching though.

Now I'll be perfectly clear. I favor a flat tax rate, that has no exceptions or exemptions whatsoever. Of preference, I'd favor switching entirely over to a sales tax, and then we can just not tax food items, as a form of government pseudo-charity that even small-government types like myself can support. I'd settle for a flat tax with no exceptions though.

That said. Whatever loopholes and legal rigamarole wealthy people use, the fact remains that statistically, they're the only ones paying taxes in the first place.

Great, they're paying accountants and lawyers to keep themselves from having to pay more, but I cannot emphasize this enough:

With statistically few exceptions, only upper-income people are effectively paying taxes at all.

Let's be clear. I personally am one of those exceptions. I have not made enough income to get out of the bottom 20% bracket in my entire life. I might eek up into the second quintile this year, we'll see how I do over the next two months. Yet, I still paid more than 10% in effective total taxes last year, entirely in social security ~medicaid stuff. Further, I have to go through the more complicated (and expensive) process of handling my taxes as someone self-employed, adding a further burden onto myself.

All that said, I still stand firmly on the position of 'If everyone is doing better, why do you care if some are doing even better than others?' The answer is, so long as they're not doing anything illegal/immoral, you shouldn't.

Now to address your direct question:
"why are some people benefiting drastically more than others? "

The answer is simply that those people are by and large working harder. This is not always true, and some people absolutely coast on what they inherited from their parents, and that's rather shameful, but nothing illegal. It's also true that some people at the top of society are very wealthy for very immoral reasons. This is a problem, and I absolutely favor changing legal codes to deal with this, but to those who understand how human psychology, economics, regulatory capture, and such things work, the solution is less taxation and regulation, not more.

The exceptions and those who abuse the system aside though, I can absolutely tell you that the single largest reason most poor people are poor, is they make bad life decisions. I say this as someone who is lower-class, who has lived amongst lower-class people, and watched how they live their lives. In the less-bad cases, it's simply the refusal to show up on time and work even decently hard at a job.

People who show up, work hard, and are smart enough to not let a bad boss take advantage of them, sooner or later almost universally start moving up. Yes, there are some exceptions to that, but you don't re-engineer the whole system for rare exceptions, you help those rare exceptions on an individual basis.

I have seen far too many people who literally cannot hold a night-shift job where all they'd need to do to keep the job, is put their damn phone down when a customer is right in front of them, and handle a transaction. If they goofed off the entire rest of the time, the boss wouldn't be happy, but they'd keep them around because the minimum requirements were being met.

People who show up to work drunk, high, who don't show up because they're drunk or high, people who just don't show up, people who show up and constantly cause problems...

Most of the people who are perpetually stuck in the lower class, are there because they are sabotaging themselves.

Yes, there are people who fall on rough circumstances, but if they keep putting themselves out there, and putting effort in, and are willing to make some sacrifices (such as move out of the area they would prefer to live in to a place with a better job market), they almost universally will get back on their feet and get moving again. Yes, again, you will find some rare exceptions that fall through the cracks, but that will happen in literally any system.

Most people who work comfortable, well-paying upper-middle & upper class jobs? They're there because they work hard. Yes, a lot are also there because parents raised them well, and helped them get through college to get into those jobs, but they keep those jobs and move up through the career path because they work well enough to earn that. And yes, there are exceptions with nepotism, corruption, etc, but those are the exceptions, not the rule.

That's why some people are so much more well-off than others.

And it's the other side of why I think the solution to how much taxes the rich are paying isn't to close loopholes, but to simplify the tax code and cut taxes in the process.

For what it's worth, I'd also support either a flat tax rate, that has no exceptions or exemptions whatsoever, or switching entirely over to a sales tax, with food exempted.

What I don't support is the idea that poor people are poor because they don't work hard enough, and that the rich are rich because they do. I've met literally dozens who have put everything they have into trying to improve their situations (myself included), and nothing works. Hard work by itself will never lead you to success; what's more important is luck, and knowing the right people.

I'm sorry, but this myth that you can always "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" is simply that; a myth, told to assuage any lingering feelings of sympathy for those less fortunate than yourself, and justify not helping them. Sure, there are exceptions where such does hold true; but to say this is true of the majority is nothing more than a delusion.

LordsFire · Nov 5, 2019

Terthna said:
For what it's worth, I'd also support either a flat tax rate, that has no exceptions or exemptions whatsoever, or switching entirely over to a sales tax, with food exempted.

What I don't support is the idea that poor people are poor because they don't work hard enough, and that the rich are rich because they do. I've met literally dozens who have put everything they have into trying to improve their situations (myself included), and nothing works. Hard work by itself will never lead you to success; what's more important is luck, and knowing the right people.

I'm sorry, but this myth that you can always "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" is simply that; a myth, told to assuage any lingering feelings of sympathy for those less fortunate than yourself, and justify not helping them. Sure, there are exceptions where such does hold true; but to say this is true of the majority is nothing more than a delusion.

Nothing works? That is a big, big assertion. You're going to have to substantiate that.

...am I mis-remembering, or are you the fellow who gave the example on another thread of how you had been taught to put your resume out to hundreds and hundreds of places at once?

Also, I'm not trying to claim that everyone who works their ass off will end up in the top 1%. I am going to argue that the overwhelming majority of people who work their ass off can end up in the middle class instead of lower, though it may take some time. And again, you have to be smart enough to not just end up somewhere that a bad boss is taking advantage of you, but be willing to find yourself a job that will give you the opportunity to get somewhere.

I'll also quote the statistic that over the course of their lifetimes, 17% of Americans (I forget if its households or individual earners) spend at least one year in the top 1% of income earners. That's a pretty big number.

Terthna · Nov 6, 2019

LordsFire said:
Nothing works? That is a big, big assertion. You're going to have to substantiate that.

...am I mis-remembering, or are you the fellow who gave the example on another thread of how you had been taught to put your resume out to hundreds and hundreds of places at once?

Yes, I am; I'm also the guy who has volunteered to hand out food to the homeless every week for the past, I think, six years now? Regardless, I'm on a first name basis with many of them, and none of homeless I've talked to are where they are because they didn't try hard enough.

LordsFire said:
Also, I'm not trying to claim that everyone who works their ass off will end up in the top 1%. I am going to argue that the overwhelming majority of people who work their ass off can end up in the middle class instead of lower, though it may take some time. And again, you have to be smart enough to not just end up somewhere that a bad boss is taking advantage of you, but be willing to find yourself a job that will give you the opportunity to get somewhere.

Again, I am rejecting that claim, wholeheartedly. The English language is insufficient at fully describing the intensity with which I reject that claim.

LordsFire said:
I'll also quote the statistic that over the course of their lifetimes, 17% of Americans (I forget if its households or individual earners) spend at least one year in the top 1% of income earners. That's a pretty big number.

And one in five women in college are sexually assaulted; statistics can lie. Particularly when you're not citing them. Even if it is true, it's a cold comfort for the 83% that never do, or those who end up at rock bottom through no fault of their own after that one year.

LordsFire · Nov 6, 2019

Terthna said:
Yes, I am; I'm also the guy who has volunteered to hand out food to the homeless every week for the past, I think, six years now? Regardless, I'm on a first name basis with many of them, and none of homeless I've talked to are where they are because they didn't try hard enough.

Again, I am rejecting that claim, wholeheartedly. The English language is insufficient at fully describing the intensity with which I reject that claim.

And one in five women in college are sexually assaulted; statistics can lie. Particularly when you're not citing them. Even if it is true, it's a cold comfort for the 83% that never do, or those who end up at rock bottom through no fault of their own after that one year.

Bluntly put, you seem to be emotionally invested in this idea that some people are just straight up permanently screwed over by the system. I don't think that's true. To be clear, I differentiate between people who have a legitimate disability (which is what charity is for helping with), and people who have given up, self-sabotaged, or both. (Who charity is also for, but in a different way.)

But let's suppose that it is true. For the sake of argument, let's say that you're right, I'm wrong, and most people who are on the bottom of the system are there through no fault of their own.

Given that the people in the top 40% income bracket already functionally pay all of the taxes anyways, how would there being some people screwed over on the bottom of the system mean that the people who are already paying for everything, should be paying even more?

Whitestrake Pelinal · Nov 6, 2019

LordsFire said:
1. If overall everything is getting better, why is some people benefiting more than others a problem?

Terthna said:
That's not the question you should be asking.

Oh but it is. That question exposes the root of the problem, the low moral character of the envious. Realize that when you're dealing with envy, you're dealing with immorality, and the scales will start to fall from your eyes.

Terthna · Nov 6, 2019

LordsFire said:
Bluntly put, you seem to be emotionally invested in this idea that some people are just straight up permanently screwed over by the system. I don't think that's true. To be clear, I differentiate between people who have a legitimate disability (which is what charity is for helping with), and people who have given up, self-sabotaged, or both. (Who charity is also for, but in a different way.)

But let's suppose that it is true. For the sake of argument, let's say that you're right, I'm wrong, and most people who are on the bottom of the system are there through no fault of their own.

Given that the people in the top 40% income bracket already functionally pay all of the taxes anyways, how would there being some people screwed over on the bottom of the system mean that the people who are already paying for everything, should be paying even more?

I just want them to stop cheating. Everyone should be paying their fair share; no more, no less. And if you think that their fair share should be less? As long as you have a convincing argument, I am not completely against the idea. I am not some delusional nutjob who believes in wealth redistribution; that sort of thinking destroys economies.

Again, I rather like the idea of a flat tax, where everyone pays exactly the same percentage of their earnings; regardless of how much those earnings are. I also like the idea of switching over entirely to a sales tax, with food being exempted. Those sound like fair ways to go about things.

Alathon said:
Oh but it is. That question exposes the root of the problem, the low moral character of the envious. Realize that when you're dealing with envy, you're dealing with immorality, and the scales will start to fall from your eyes.

No; what seems to be at the root of the problem is arrogance, and a belief that the "elites" should be treated differently than the "common peasants".

Captain X · Nov 6, 2019

It is rather depressing to see how much CEOs make in comparison to the lowest paid workers in their companies now vs. in the 1960s.

FriedCFour · Nov 7, 2019

Morphic Tide said:
For example, current "richest" man alive Jeff Bezos is "rich" because he was simply the earliest guy to get online retail off the ground that didn't go down with the dotcom bust, and also relentlessly smooth-talking investors to allow him to perpetually invest in expansion. Not nearly so much a matter of good product.

A lot of the super-rich are stock money, people who ride the hype train of innovators who get rich off of "firsts" and sub-market domination, alongside what's pretty close to gambling.

All of that takes talent and skill and a willingness to take risks. It's not remotely pure luck.

Morphic Tide said:
For example, current "richest" man alive Jeff Bezos is "rich" because he was simply the earliest guy to get online retail off the ground that didn't go down with the dotcom bust, and also relentlessly smooth-talking investors to allow him to perpetually invest in expansion. Not nearly so much a matter of good product.

A lot of the super-rich are stock money, people who ride the hype train of innovators who get rich off of "firsts" and sub-market domination, alongside what's pretty close to gambling.

All of that takes talent and skill and a willingness to take risks. It's not remotely pure luck. Even then if all you have is the ability to be first and to smooth talk investors you end up a Billy McFarlane, not a Bezos.

Terthna said:
What I don't support is the idea that poor people are poor because they don't work hard enough, and that the rich are rich because they do. I've met literally dozens who have put everything they have into trying to improve their situations (myself included), and nothing works. Hard work by itself will never lead you to success; what's more important is luck, and knowing the right people.

Hard work absolutely will and you haven't put everything into it. You angrily shot down mine and others who are heavy with life experience free offers of support and help. That's not putting everything into it. The reality is, if you get full time employment, don't marry until at least 21 and graduate highschool statistically you are almost guaranteed to be middle class.

Terthna said:
Regardless, I'm on a first name basis with many of them, and none of homeless I've talked to are where they are because they didn't try hard enough.

This might surprise you but they likely aren't reliable narrators. The vast majority of longterm homeless are mentally ill or drug addicts.

Terthna said:
I just want them to stop cheating. Everyone should be paying their fair share; no more, no less. And if you think that their fair share should be less?

Currently they pay effectively 100% of all taxes when benefits are factored in. What's more fair than 100%?

Captain X said:
It is rather depressing to see how much CEOs make in comparison to the lowest paid workers in their companies now vs. in the 1960s.

Can we see those comparisons?

Terthna · Nov 7, 2019

FriedCFour said:
All of that takes talent and skill and a willingness to take risks. It's not remotely pure luck.

All of that takes talent and skill and a willingness to take risks. It's not remotely pure luck. Even then if all you have is the ability to be first and to smooth talk investors you end up a Billy McFarlane, not a Bezos.

Hard work absolutely will and you haven't put everything into it. You angrily shot down mine and others who are heavy with life experience free offers of support and help. That's not putting everything into it. The reality is, if you get full time employment, don't marry until at least 21 and graduate highschool statistically you are almost guaranteed to be middle class.

Pointing out that you have no idea what you're talking about says nothing about the effort I put into finding work. I'm 35 and never so much as kissed a girl, I graduated high school, I graduated from college with a 4.0 GPA, and I spent over four years of my life knocking on doors and filling out literally hundreds of job applications, for everything from entry level positions in my desired field, to any retail or fast food job I could find; not once have I ever managed to get so much as an interview, let alone an actual job.

Put bluntly; from my perspective you got lucky, and I'm really not appreciating your condescending attitude. I shot you down because what you were offering wasn't help, just ignorant nagging on your part.

FriedCFour · Nov 7, 2019

Terthna said:
Pointing out that you have no idea what you're talking about says nothing about the effort I put into finding work. I'm 35 and never so much as kissed a girl, I graduated high school, I graduated from collage with a 4.0 GPA, and I spent over four years of my life knocking on doors and filling out literally hundreds of job applications, for everything from entry level positions in my desired field, to any retail or fast food job I could find; not once have I ever managed to get so much as an interview, let alone an actual job.

Put bluntly; from my perspective you got lucky, and I'm really not appreciating your condescending attitude. I shot you down because what you were offering wasn't help, just ignorant nagging on your part.

Hundreds of applications and nothing means you are doing something wrong, plain and simple. People with vastly more life experience than you and I said as much. And do you still continually fill out applications? I just seriously doubt that I was so incredibly lucky so many times, and not that you haven't had a combination of bad luck and mistakes. And offering to help you with job applications and finding employment isn't nagging, its help, and seeing it that way is resigning yourself to failure. It's extremely hard to take personal responsibility for what you personally failed at, and very easy to blame something nebulous like the rich but you can improve.

LordsFire · Nov 7, 2019

Terthna said:
Pointing out that you have no idea what you're talking about says nothing about the effort I put into finding work. I'm 35 and never so much as kissed a girl, I graduated high school, I graduated from college with a 4.0 GPA, and I spent over four years of my life knocking on doors and filling out literally hundreds of job applications, for everything from entry level positions in my desired field, to any retail or fast food job I could find; not once have I ever managed to get so much as an interview, let alone an actual job.

Put bluntly; from my perspective you got lucky, and I'm really not appreciating your condescending attitude. I shot you down because what you were offering wasn't help, just ignorant nagging on your part.

Do you think every single employer you've applied with so far has rejected you because you have bad luck?

Or maybe are you doing something wrong?

Have you moved to a different area and continued to try?

Have you completely re-written your resume to suit the new type of jobs you were looking for?

Have you directly asked someone who is hiring why they didn't hire you, or even give you an interview? I've known plenty of employers who even if they weren't willing to change their mind on you, would be happy to offer you advice so you might do better the next place you apply at.

Do you think every single employer in the entire nation is going to reject you, purely because you have bad luck?

...If you've never actually had a job, why do you refuse to accept the advice of those who have?

Terthna · Nov 7, 2019

FriedCFour said:
Hundreds of applications and nothing means you are doing something wrong, plain and simple. People with vastly more life experience than you and I said as much. And do you still continually fill out applications? I just seriously doubt that I was so incredibly lucky so many times, and not that you haven't had a combination of bad luck and mistakes. And offering to help you with job applications and finding employment isn't nagging, its help, and seeing it that way is resigning yourself to failure. It's extremely hard to take personal responsibility for what you personally failed at, and very easy to blame something nebulous like the rich but you can improve.

I'm sorry; but where did I say I was blaming the rich for my problems? Or anyone for that matter? And no, I don't fill out applications anymore; I wasn't legally allowed to for three years, because of the terms of my loan forgiveness. And I don't care what mistakes you think I made in my search for a job; I sought professional help from at least three different sources in constructing my approach to find a job, so some random yahoo on the internet is unlikely in the extreme to come up with something better I should have done.

That said, I will accept the possibility that I was simply unlucky; but you have to understand that I am nowhere close to being unique in that regard. In fact, I know people who have had it even worse than I did, and to insist that I or they didn't try hard enough is just insulting.

Terthna · Nov 7, 2019

LordsFire said:
Do you think every single employer you've applied with so far has rejected you because you have bad luck?

I don't know; maybe?

LordsFire said:
Or maybe are you doing something wrong?

I though about that every day for many years; that question nearly killed me.

LordsFire said:
Have you moved to a different area and continued to try?

It's never been an option; though in my desperation, I end up trying for pretty much any job in a fifty mile radius of where I live, which is just south of Seattle.

LordsFire said:
Have you completely re-written your resume to suit the new type of jobs you were looking for?

Countless times, yes.

LordsFire said:
Have you directly asked someone who is hiring why they didn't hire you, or even give you an interview? I've known plenty of employers who even if they weren't willing to change their mind on you, would be happy to offer you advice so you might do better the next place you apply at.

Yes. None of them ever gave me a straight answer. I was, however, able to talk to several job councilors and coaches, and got their advice on how to improve my approach. In the end though, I never got the opportunity to use most of it, because nobody ever even interviewed me.

LordsFire said:
Do you think every single employer in the entire nation is going to reject you, purely because you have bad luck?

I don't know why they all rejected me; all I have is the fact that they did, and that I tried my best.

LordsFire said:
...If you've never actually had a job, why do you refuse to accept the advice of those who have?

Because their "advice" is either nothing I haven't seen before, or just variations on "you just didn't try hard enough"; which basically translates to "I'm better than you". You think the only reason anyone fails, is because they're incompetent fools? Well, I'm sorry; but the real world is not so forgiving as that. Oftentimes, people fail through no fault of their own, and there is nothing you can do about it.

LordsFire · Nov 7, 2019

Terthna said:
Because their "advice" is either nothing I haven't seen before, or just variations on "you just didn't try hard enough"; which basically translates to "I'm better than you". You think the only reason anyone fails, is because they're incompetent fools? Well, I'm sorry; but the real world is not so forgiving as that. Oftentimes, people fail through no fault of their own, and there is nothing you can do about it.

Then the part of the problem you can control at this point, is that you've given up.

Now, we live in a nation of over 300 million people. Statistically, a small percentage of people constantly getting the shaft, yes, that'll probably happen. That's not a problem with the system itself though, that's a problem with what happens in any sufficiently large group of people. Maybe you are that one in a hundred million who legitimately has the dice come up snake-eyes a hundred times in a row.

That said, if you weren't willing to leave the area, that's one thing right there. I went a couple years not getting a job in the same area, so I left, and got a job about three months after I moved to the new area.

Maybe you'll get the shaft again, and that won't work either. I do admit that there is a miniscule percentage of people who will legitimately just get shafted, due to the various laws around large numbers.

That doesn't change the fact that for the overwhelming majority of people (over 90%, though I can't remember the exact statistic right now), keeping trying and remaining responsible does work. And that the majority of people who are long-term in poverty are either disabled in some way (and that is what charity is for helping), or got their by their own self-sabotage.

Captain X · Nov 7, 2019

FriedCFour said:
Can we see those comparisons?

I'm going off of memory of a chart of the pay ratio over time, and after a bit of looking, I think this is the source:

CEO Pay Continues to Rise as Typical Workers Are Paid Less

“The fact that CEOs make almost 300 times what workers make should set off alarms,” said EPI President Lawrence Mishel of EPI’s 2014 report on CEO pay. CEOs at the top 350 firms earned an average of $15.2 million in 2013, up 937% since 1978. CEO pay is growing faster than worker pay (up only...

www.epi.org

Terthna · Nov 7, 2019

LordsFire said:
Then the part of the problem you can control at this point, is that you've given up.

Now, we live in a nation of over 300 million people. Statistically, a small percentage of people constantly getting the shaft, yes, that'll probably happen. That's not a problem with the system itself though, that's a problem with what happens in any sufficiently large group of people. Maybe you are that one in a hundred million who legitimately has the dice come up snake-eyes a hundred times in a row.

That said, if you weren't willing to leave the area, that's one thing right there. I went a couple years not getting a job in the same area, so I left, and got a job about three months after I moved to the new area.

Maybe you'll get the shaft again, and that won't work either. I do admit that there is a miniscule percentage of people who will legitimately just get shafted, due to the various laws around large numbers.

That doesn't change the fact that for the overwhelming majority of people (over 90%, though I can't remember the exact statistic right now), keeping trying and remaining responsible does work. And that the majority of people who are long-term in poverty are either disabled in some way (and that is what charity is for helping), or got their by their own self-sabotage.

Well, you're right about one thing at least; I gave up a long time ago. And honestly? While I have some regrets, I still think it was the best decision I could have made.

As for leaving the area; did you miss the part where I said even a fifty mile radius area turned up nothing? At that point, to go ever further I might as well have left the state, and that was never in the cards. Even setting aside my own inadequacies that make living anywhere else impossible; my dad has Parkinson's, and my mom has so many conditions causing her pain, she can't even make her own bed. I can't leave them; they need me.

LordsFire · Nov 7, 2019

Terthna said:
Well, you're right about one thing at least; I gave up a long time ago. And honestly? While I have some regrets, I still think it was the best decision I could have made.

As for leaving the area; did you miss the part where I said even a fifty mile radius area turned up nothing? At that point, to go ever further I might as well have left the state, and that was never in the cards. Even setting aside my own inadequacies that make living anywhere else impossible; my dad has Parkinson's, and my mom has so many conditions causing her pain, she can't even make her own bed. I can't leave them; they need me.

That last part is fair. Taking care of family is important, and if that's the responsibility pinning you in place, I won't try to criticize you for that, in fact, I'll laud you for it.

I have further thoughts, but I don't think they're immediately germane to this thread. Would you be interested in continuing this discussion via PMs?

Terthna · Nov 7, 2019

LordsFire said:
That last part is fair. Taking care of family is important, and if that's the responsibility pinning you in place, I won't try to criticize you for that, in fact, I'll laud you for it.

I have further thoughts, but I don't think they're immediately germane to this thread. Would you be interested in continuing this discussion via PMs?

Depends on what you have to say; send me a PM, and we'll see.

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