Battletech Welcome to the Jungle

The Unicorn

Well-known member
Actually, I'd use it for one thing. A hidden launch/recovery platform for ASF. Repair one bay so it's airtight, and give it a fusion engine or two for power. Place some launch and recovery capability in it, and you've got a nice little rotation for your ASF to hide in.
You're thinking as if BT is a logical setting, not one where all the screwy and contradictory construction rules apply. You can't do anything that sensible in BT.

The issue with that is that it looks a lot like a Warship.
This is ridiculous and stupid enough to be actually a thing in BT. If the story setting allows the sort of sensible construction like people are talking it's not going to look anything like any sort of ship, much less a warship.
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
Actually, I'd use it for one thing. A hidden launch/recovery platform for ASF. Repair one bay so it's airtight, and give it a fusion engine or two for power. Place some launch and recovery capability in it, and you've got a nice little rotation for your ASF to hide in.
The ship is most likely structural loss, to do what you propose, Weber would need Warship grade shipyard to do this and the only one in IS is in the Sol system.

Actually, it's easy in aerospace construction.
Just because it's easy in the rules it doesn't mean it's actually easy. Just look at the chapter that is dealing with the upgrade of Centurions, while easy in the rules, it was quite complicated in the story. Warship is much more complex system than ASF and on top of it this one is wrecked. Weber is chasing the attainable goals with limited manpower, material and financial resources, he doesn't have time and resources to throw at such follies.
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
I get that it'd take a lot of work. But what you want to do is not out of the realm of possible given what's in the Catachan system. You've got the asteroid mining/production facilities. So material isn't a huge issue. You're not looking to make it something to fight from, just a forward deployed airfield.

You'll need to make sure one of the bays is large enough for this, AND that you can reseal it. That's not required work from shipyard, though it'd be nice to have the infrastructure/tools from that. Any arresting gear or launch equipment can be brought over from any dropship that has it. Hell, Catachan may have some of this on their ground airfields just to keep the fuel usage down from takeoff in the higher gravity.

Never thought it would be easy, and it's NOT going to be a priority, but it IS possible...depending on the SI of the area around said space in the Pinto.
 

The Unicorn

Well-known member
Actually, it's easy in aerospace construction. Bays are generally swappable if you have capacity. Not like omni-tech, but volume & mass in a ship are definitely one thing you can alter.
The bays are swapable, but you need a functioning structure to put them in. Since the warship is dead you can't do anything with it. Never mind that logically anything that holds together enough to be a single hull will work as a station, by BT rules you get stuff like:

The ship is most likely structural loss, to do what you propose, Weber would need Warship grade shipyard to do this and the only one in IS is in the Sol system.
This.

That's how BT works and this story seems to be going with a lot of RAW so it's probably what will apply in the story setting.
 

Speaker4thesilent

Crazed Deplorable
Which if BT was a more sane setting would make it an ideal foundation to build a space station on.
Actually, I'd use it for one thing. A hidden launch/recovery platform for ASF. Repair one bay so it's airtight, and give it a fusion engine or two for power. Place some launch and recovery capability in it, and you've got a nice little rotation for your ASF to hide in.
“-a little bit of Column A, try all of Column B ...”
The ship is most likely structural loss, to do what you propose, Weber would need Warship grade shipyard to do this and the only one in IS is in the Sol system.


Just because it's easy in the rules it doesn't mean it's actually easy. Just look at the chapter that is dealing with the upgrade of Centurions, while easy in the rules, it was quite complicated in the story. Warship is much more complex system than ASF and on top of it this one is wrecked. Weber is chasing the attainable goals with limited manpower, material and financial resources, he doesn't have time and resources to throw at such follies.
I mean, if he ever wanted it to move under its own power again like a system monitor, all of that would be a concern. Simply reinforcing stuff so that it doesn’t collapse and then building stuff into it isn’t actually all that hard.

Slowly adjust it into the orbit you want.
Estimated time: 5-7 years of making slow, careful adjustments. Estimated cost: labor for the eggheads doing the math, wear and tear on some Dropships, Good Training, fuel. (mostly nothing that wasn’t going to be spent anyway.)

Seal the great whacking hole in it from the nuke that killed it.
Estimated time: depends on how many people you’re willing to throw at this project. Almost certainly less than a year.
Cost: a lot of sheet metal, some Ferro-carbide armor you’ve got laying around with no particular use for, labor, oxygen, not using optical welding equipment and space suits for some other task.

Refit the bitch into an ASF base, covert or otherwise.
Estimated time: depends on resources devoted, but probably not more than ten years, even if you’re lazy about it.
Estimated cost: lots, but almost certainly cheaper than buying the number of dropships you would need to do the same job. Assuming that you can, in fact, buy the number of dropships you would need to do the same job. Good luck with that.

Station it out in the rings of that gas giant, and you’ve got a dedicated ASF base that looks like just another bit of space rock until someone gets far, far too close. And since it no longer needs that big sphere of germanium alloy it had rolling around in its guts, it has a massive amount of cubage for things like storage, repair facilities, and even luxury items/facilities for the workers on those factories so it isn’t quite such a hardship post.
 

Detlef

Member
Actually before turning that Pinto into a dedicated ASF base "stationed out in the rings of that gas giant" I personally would try to partially / fully repair the actually existing space station orbiting Catachan?
I mean that station is already partially habitable and in orbit? At least that was the information in earlier chapters?

Placing one or two squadrons there should be infinitely easier than waiting 10-15 years for the "Pinto ASF base out there in the rings of that gas giant"? Even if the station is not fully repaired right now.

Not to mention that the main problem seems to be the scarcity of ASF pilots and the scarcity of available and acceptable ASFs?

I seem to remember that Alastair politely declined Katrina´s offer of a few Lyran Commonwealth squadrons stationed at Catachan. Seydlitz and Lucifers if I remember correctly? Although he would eagerly accept some Rapiers?

Quite simply put, the already existing and at least partially habitable space station seems to be a much easier and cheaper base for placing an ASF base in orbit. Especially given the scarcity of ASF pilots and ASFs right now.
Using the Pinto hull as a secondary ASF base might make sense once they have a surplus of resources and personnel.
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
Quite simply put, the already existing and at least partially habitable space station seems to be a much easier and cheaper base for placing an ASF base in orbit. Especially given the scarcity of ASF pilots and ASFs right now.
Using the Pinto hull as a secondary ASF base might make sense once they have a surplus of resources and personnel.
Not wrong.
 

Speaker4thesilent

Crazed Deplorable
Actually before turning that Pinto into a dedicated ASF base "stationed out in the rings of that gas giant" I personally would try to partially / fully repair the actually existing space station orbiting Catachan?
I mean that station is already partially habitable and in orbit? At least that was the information in earlier chapters?

Placing one or two squadrons there should be infinitely easier than waiting 10-15 years for the "Pinto ASF base out there in the rings of that gas giant"? Even if the station is not fully repaired right now.

Not to mention that the main problem seems to be the scarcity of ASF pilots and the scarcity of available and acceptable ASFs?

I seem to remember that Alastair politely declined Katrina´s offer of a few Lyran Commonwealth squadrons stationed at Catachan. Seydlitz and Lucifers if I remember correctly? Although he would eagerly accept some Rapiers?

Quite simply put, the already existing and at least partially habitable space station seems to be a much easier and cheaper base for placing an ASF base in orbit. Especially given the scarcity of ASF pilots and ASFs right now.
Using the Pinto hull as a secondary ASF base might make sense once they have a surplus of resources and personnel.
Not wrong.
Except it’s already being used? And that doesn’t actually solve the problem of ‘I need carrier Dropships for detached duty, but can’t get good ones.’

Titans are extinct, Vengeance are constructed primarily in the Combine with only a single production line in the Federated Suns still making them. That leaves Union CVs which are only barely fit for purpose, and explicitly under-supplied. That’s fine for supporting birds that have all-energy armaments like Centurions and the new Stingray, but any Dropper-Chopper requires ammunition. Usually lots of it. Ergo, the need for some sort of Fighter base that doesn’t suck ass as a supply hub.

Edit: Besides, Weber has the planet right there if he needs to base ASFs from it. Protecting the factories in the rings, on the other hand ... that planet can literally be closer to the jump points than Catachan depending on where they are in their orbital paths.

With the warship-cum-station, rather than needing to run supplies out to each Union every few days with either a stream of small craft or another dropship, every few weeks you can send a mule with everything you need. Not only for the ASFs, but for the factories as well allowing a vastly simplified chain of logistics.
 
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Orangeduke38

Well-known member
Yeah, the best option would be to do a full redesign of the Triumph into a tough carrier that carries more ASF's and cargo than a Union-CV but less than a Vengeance. Designing a new carrier dropship is out of the range of possibility right now.
 
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The Unicorn

Well-known member
that planet can literally be closer to the jump points than Catachan depending on where they are in their orbital paths.
Standard jump "points" are perpendicular to the ecliptic. unless the planet's orbit was at a high angle relative to the ecliptic, the distance from it to the Zenith and Nadir points is going to be pretty constant. Unless I missed something you changed for your story?

It is of course possible for a ship to jump to a point on the ecliptic far enough from the star and any planet to be safe to jump, and while I don't think there's anything about that in canon most fanon treats that as much easier and safer than pirate points, but it's still not as easy and safe as the standard jump points (if it was people would use that to shave off a day or so from travel time to various planets).

Although safe distance from a gas giant would still take a day or two at 1g even if you're far enough from the star for it not to matter.
 

Speaker4thesilent

Crazed Deplorable
Standard jump "points" are perpendicular to the ecliptic. unless the planet's orbit was at a high angle relative to the ecliptic, the distance from it to the Zenith and Nadir points is going to be pretty constant
Yes, but the planets move. If they end up on opposite sides of the star, it takes longer to get to the other planet than it does the jump point, if only because you have to build delta V in an additional direction.

This means supplying one or more Union CVs goes from ‘inconvenient’ to ‘hellish’ depending on where the planets are in their relative orbits. It’s a point failure source.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
I'm not entirely clear on why you'd want to garrison a gas giant in the first place, granted maybe I've forgotten something, the story has been running a couple years. But unless there's already a base there or a moon with a germanium mine or something who cares if Kurita decides to raid a gasball with no life and no appreciable resources? The defensive forces should stay at Catachan where there's something worth defending.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
Hmm, okay then. So would it be better to move a garrison to the rings or move the factories to Catachan? If the factories are meant to be hidden putting an airbase in a wrecked WarShip there is only going to draw attention to them, and if they're in orbit they can probably be moved as easily as any other factory.
 

The Unicorn

Well-known member
Yes, but the planets move. If they end up on opposite sides of the star, it takes longer to get to the other planet than it does the jump point, if only because you have to build delta V in an additional direction.
I misread what you wrote, but I'll note that the delta-V isn't going to be an issue unless you have one of the planets traveling in the opposite direction since the difference in orbital speeds of planets in the same system will be vairly small.
It certainly can take longer to go from one planet to another than from either to the jump point, for that matter I don't think you mentioned anything about how far out the gas giant is so it could be far enough out that even at closest approach the jump point is closer.

I'm not entirely clear on why you'd want to garrison a gas giant in the first place,
The orbital factories were hidden there.

Hmm, okay then. So would it be better to move a garrison to the rings or move the factories to Catachan?
In the rings of the gas giant the factories are hidden and have easy access to asteroids for mining. In Catchan orbit they're a giant, very obvious target and they need to find alternate source for the resources they were mining from the asteroids.
And that's assuming it's even possible to move the factories, it might not be.
 

Speaker4thesilent

Crazed Deplorable
Hmm, okay then. So would it be better to move a garrison to the rings or move the factories to Catachan? If the factories are meant to be hidden putting an airbase in a wrecked WarShip there is only going to draw attention to them, and if they're in orbit they can probably be moved as easily as any other factory.
Already mentioned that moving the three factories (freezers, Endosteel, and Ferro Armor Series) is a no-go, but it was a while ago. And remember that BT sensors aren’t great. Camouflaged in amongst the rings and without the drive plume to give it away? Unless they already know it’s there any invader is likely to miss it.

the difference in orbital speeds of planets in the same system will be vairly small
That isn’t the issue. The issue is needing to divert around the star. Instead of an easy accelerate burn then decelerate burn, you have an accelerate+up/out, accelerate+down/in, and deceleration and complicated astrogation. Uses more fuel and more time.

Theoretically, you could still do it with two burns, but it adds time and energy expenditure because you aren’t simply taking a straight or mostly straight line.
 

The Unicorn

Well-known member
That isn’t the issue. The issue is needing to divert around the star. Instead of an easy accelerate burn then decelerate burn, you have an accelerate+up/out, accelerate+down/in, and deceleration and complicated astrogation. Uses more fuel and more time.
Umm...no, you'd accelerate towards the star, sling shot around and then continue accelerating. THe closer you can get to the star the bigger a boost you get. Granted that's much more complicated navigationally than the simplified straight line most gamers assume is possible, but then so is the sort of route any dropship would actually have to take to get from the jump point to the

Theoretically, you could still do it with two burns, but it adds time and energy expenditure because you aren’t simply taking a straight or mostly straight line.
Other way around. You can, if you have problems with navigation, use a simple single burn and turnover route (although a triangle instead of a single line because the star is in the middle) but that would take much more energy and time than a more complicated route, either the slingshot I described above, or use multiple course corrections would require less fuel and time than that. As ling shot route is infact faster and consumes less fuel than a theoretical straight line through the star (assuming you could do that or the star wasn't in the way).

EDIT:No, that doesn't work, you can't use a Slingshot maneuver around a stationary object.
 
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Detlef

Member
<Snip>

Edit: Besides, Weber has the planet right there if he needs to base ASFs from it. Protecting the factories in the rings, on the other hand ... that planet can literally be closer to the jump points than Catachan depending on where they are in their orbital paths.

With the warship-cum-station, rather than needing to run supplies out to each Union every few days with either a stream of small craft or another dropship, every few weeks you can send a mule with everything you need. Not only for the ASFs, but for the factories as well allowing a vastly simplified chain of logistics.

That makes sense. I must have overlooked that it was for the protection of the factory satellites.

It´s already in space so you might be able to use small craft / dropships to tug it slowly to its new position. That will take time but you won´t need any repaired transit drives for that.
Just some small station keeping drives for later on once it is in position. Of course the work to turn it into a space station should be done before moving it. Making it airtight, installing some fusion power plants, life support, communications, perhaps some anti-ASF weapons...

The Pinto carried 12 ASFs and 2 small craft plus 10,942 tons of cargo. With the removal of the capital naval weapons you gain another 6,500 tons of tonnage. The KF drive is very probably not functioning too, so remove it and sell it for the Germanium? Another 72,000 tons.

If you were to install 54 ASF bays and 6 small craft bays (just as an example) that would be still less than 10,000 tons. Quarters for crew and bay personnel, life support and power plants, you can just re-purpose the old spaces used for it. If they are accessible of course.

The main advantages the Pinto space station would have over any dropship is the tonnage and the hopefully repaired grav deck.

A quick and dirty check with MegaMekLab says that if you leave the not functioning transit drives alone, remove only 50% of the KF drive (no idea how much the Germanium part weights), keep 1,000 ton of fuel for the position keeping drives, same armor (92 tons), no weapons, 54 ASF bays, 6 small craft bays, crew quarters for everyone including bay personnel, you still would have around 60,000 tons to play with.

That of course might be reduced by parts of the hull not recoverable? And note that´s with keeping the destroyed transit drives in place and only removing half of the KF drive tonnage. If you leave the KF drive in place too because you don´t have the equipment to remove it, it still leaves you with roughly 25,000 tons of cargo.

A Titan carrier dropship with its 18 ASF carried around 3,000 tons of cargo. So 9,000 tons for 54 ASF plus - say - 1,000 tons for 6 small craft still leaves 10,000 to 15,000 tons of cargo. Enough perhaps to install some anti-ASF weapons on the station?
 

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