History Learner
Well-known member
Care to name the U.S. armor division stationed in Poland? I'll wait.
And you seem to have forgotten the context was if NATO invaded Russia through Ukraine, would Moscow resort to nuclear weapons.
Russia(gate/bot) At what rate is NATO planning to invite in Ukraine? If NATO doesn't know, why is negotiating away a neutrality agreement a non-starter?
- Thread starter raharris1973
- Start date
Care to name the U.S. armor division stationed in Poland? I'll wait.
And you seem to have forgotten the context was if NATO invaded Russia through Ukraine, would Moscow resort to nuclear weapons.
Yes, it would, especially if it could not effectively fight against NATO conventionally. Ditto if China were to try militarily invading the Russian Far East.
Currently there are less forces, but it was there in the exercise mentioned in video description - Defender 2020.
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These Army units are going to Europe this spring for Defender 2020 — but they’re pretending it’s 2028
The upcoming Defender 2020 exercise will involve about 20,000 U.S. soldiers deploying from CONUS.
www.defensenews.com
Not strictly armored division, but it was a combined arms cavalry division.
No, the context was if NATO *stationed* troops in Ukraine. Yes, there is a subtle yet massive difference between stationing troops in Ukraine with its consent and invading Russia through Ukraine (or any other route really).
And as you can find out from the article i've linked, it was such an urgent crisis that... well US politicians were unhappy, but the troops stayed there until Soviet Union fell regardless.
History Learner
Well-known member
Currently there are less forces, but it was there in the exercise mentioned in video description - Defender 2020.
These Army units are going to Europe this spring for Defender 2020 — but they’re pretending it’s 2028
The upcoming Defender 2020 exercise will involve about 20,000 U.S. soldiers deploying from CONUS.
Not strictly armored division, but it was a combined arms cavalry division.
It was composite division of elements from multiple others, so not even a full combined arms cavalry division. There's also the point to be made that an exercise in Poland is certainly less hostile than one in Ukraine or Belarus, because then Russia still has a buffer.
Follow the quote chain, I was talking about the use of Russian nuclear weapons in the event of a NATO invasion; hence why I specifically said "rolling on the border".
Again, it's obvious you never actually read it:
Political conditions in the U.S. in the fall of 1979 were such that the discovery of the brigade in Cuba was bound to set off a firestorm. Anti-Soviet hardliners who saw the USSR as an imminent, existential threat had succeeded in pushing American public opinion on foreign policy further and further to the right over the preceding years.
News of the Soviet forces in Cuba reached the public just a few weeks after Carter had submitted SALT II to the Senate for ratification. That the controversy unfolded shortly before the onset of the 1980 presidential campaign only added to the situation’s combustibility. Had the Soviet troops been detected a year or two earlier, it’s unlikely that it would have caused the furor that it did.
In the end, SALT II never got a vote. The brigade issue delayed Senate action on the agreement until late 1979, by which time its fate was overtaken by events. The Soviets invaded Afghanistan at the end of December, and in response Carter officially asked the Senate to postpone its consideration of the treaty indefinitely.
His administration had planned to mount a renewed push for ratification at the start of his second term, but he lost his 1980 bid for reelection to Ronald Reagan, the favorite son of anti-Soviet hardliners and an expressed opponent of the treaty. Had the Soviet troops controversy not arisen, it is quite possible that SALT II would have been approved.
The uproar in the United States over the troops in Cuba was a strong indication that the era of détente was over. In his speech to the nation, Carter stated that “the brigade issue is certainly no reason for a return to the Cold War.” But it had never really ended, just diminished in intensity.
Wrong, because Russia's Kaliningrad Oblast directly borders Poland.
History Learner
Well-known member
I think even Moscow would agree Kaliningrad is not the Russian heartland, either.
It's not the Russian heartland but it still contains almost a million Russian citizens. Russia can't simply make them vulnerable, now can it? A million Russian citizens isn't much in statistical terms, but it's still an overall huge number.
History Learner
Well-known member
Out of a population of about 140 million, without much in the way of strategic resources. It's pretty clear why the Russians can be concerned about NATO in Ukraine (the ability to cut off the Kuban and advance positions on Moscow, Kazan, etc) and not as much about Kaliningrad.
Fair enough, I suppose. BTW, Zbigniew Brzezinski advocated a Finlandization of Ukraine right after the success of the Maidan Revolution there:
Russia needs a ‘Finland option’ for Ukraine
Kiev must have no participation in any anti-Moscow alliance, writes Zbigniew Brzezinski
www.ft.com
1st CAV was being sent there in rotations last I checked.Currently there are less forces, but it was there in the exercise mentioned in video description - Defender 2020.
These Army units are going to Europe this spring for Defender 2020 — but they’re pretending it’s 2028
The upcoming Defender 2020 exercise will involve about 20,000 U.S. soldiers deploying from CONUS.
Not strictly armored division, but it was a combined arms cavalry division.
No, the context was if NATO *stationed* troops in Ukraine. Yes, there is a subtle yet massive difference between stationing troops in Ukraine with its consent and invading Russia through Ukraine (or any other route really).
And as you can find out from the article i've linked, it was such an urgent crisis that... well US politicians were unhappy, but the troops stayed there until Soviet Union fell regardless.
Admiral Chekov
Well-known member
For those people who fear Putin/think that Russia is all geared up to unprovokedly invade other countries/start WW3. Well, what can I say. There's no way to change your mind, because (for various reasons) thousands of writers, journalists and filmmakers work around the clock to reinforce your opinion. This conveyor belt worked day and night in the days of the Cold War; it never really stopped in the days of Gorbachev and Yeltsin (I know that for a fact - I lived in the UK in the early 90s) and it certainly works at full speed now... I just ask you to trust your common sense more often
Also, here are links to some of Russia's major TV channels ("Channel 1", "Russia 24" and "Culture"). Hope the links work. They're the same versions as I'm watching on my TV right now, sitting in Moscow. Sure, there's a lot of politics on screen these days, and quite a lot of mistrust towards the West. But, maybe, you'll see that there are other things going on in Russia, apart from preparations for the invasion of Europe. There are other things that Russians feel concerned about; things that they feel happy/sad about; things they dream about. At any rate, if things suddenly go pear-shaped and all other broadcasts get replaced by warmongering supremacist propaganda - you'll be among the first to know))... Use your own brains and eyes, guys
PS. I could've also posted links to some of the numerous Russian entertainment channels. But there's hardly any point - they're mostly showing the same Hollywood and European movies/series you're watching right now
Channel 1
Russia 24
Culture (a non-commercial channel without ads)
Also, here are links to some of Russia's major TV channels ("Channel 1", "Russia 24" and "Culture"). Hope the links work. They're the same versions as I'm watching on my TV right now, sitting in Moscow. Sure, there's a lot of politics on screen these days, and quite a lot of mistrust towards the West. But, maybe, you'll see that there are other things going on in Russia, apart from preparations for the invasion of Europe. There are other things that Russians feel concerned about; things that they feel happy/sad about; things they dream about. At any rate, if things suddenly go pear-shaped and all other broadcasts get replaced by warmongering supremacist propaganda - you'll be among the first to know))... Use your own brains and eyes, guys
PS. I could've also posted links to some of the numerous Russian entertainment channels. But there's hardly any point - they're mostly showing the same Hollywood and European movies/series you're watching right now
Channel 1
Russia 24
Culture (a non-commercial channel without ads)
And that's the thing, Russia is kinda like USA in regard to wars. Even in USA there is only limited concern among the establishment elites about what wars the general population wants or not.
In Russia, the KGB elite in power cares about the people's concerns in such matters even less than the Clintons, Bushes and Cheneys of the world.
Also, no one is worrying that Russia is going to try start WW3 with NATO for the hell of it, its that Russia will appropriate further part of Ukraine, or perhaps even all of it.
strunkenwhite
Well-known member
I don't think there's any real chance they'd jump right to nuclear war. But I also don't think it's realistically possible to enter Ukraine into NATO "immediately", politically speaking. If the NATO allies showed clear signals, which I think would be very hard if not impossible to hide for long enough, that they were determined to bring Ukraine into NATO at top speed, I do think it's plausible that Russia would preemptively do a full scale invasion of Ukraine and go, "So are you really going to let them in and retroactively ring that bell?"
It is not crazy to think that the above scenario could escalate to nuclear war somehow, but it would be neither certain nor the first step.
Admiral Chekov
Well-known member
Well, the US usually starts little wars half the world away from its borders. On the other hand, Russia is facing a neighboring country, led by forces that came to power in 2014 under dubious circumstances. A country, that's been subjected to at least two decades of militant nationalist and russophobic propaganda (let's face it - propaganda, heavily financed by the West). On the other hand, for centuries, Russian and Ukrainian people lived side by side/formed mixed families. In the Soviet days, Russians and Ukrainians fought the Nazis together; built new factories and cities; explored space; made movies and published books; wrote and read sci fi together... I'm Russian/Ukrainian. I live in Moscow and know full well that it wasn't Russia that started the current crisis. There's no animosity towards Ukrainians in Russia and Putin and his team are all too conscious of the human/cultural importance of Russian/Ukrainian ties. Right now, the people of Donbass suffer and die for their refusal to betray their friends and relatives, their history and ideals. For daring to remain normal, equally open to Russian, Ukrainian and Western culture, instead of sliding into pig-headed nationalism-cum-fascism. All the same, while supporting Donetsk and Luhansk, Putin is not thinking in terms of annexing Ukraine. War will only become a possibility, if the US and NATO attempt to turn Ukraine into a launch pad for missiles/continue to support Ukraine's actions against Donbass, which even now continue to cause civilian deaths and injuries. But, come what may, for Russia, Ukrainian crisis is not some video game or a foreign adventure with a chance of gaining influence/resources. It's a wound that needs attentive healing... Also, I would disagree on the unimportance of general population's attitude tow the elite's plans to start a war. This may be true for the US with its shenanigans on other continents. Things are quite different in the case of Russia and Ukraine
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Its not like the Russian establishment asked before the Libya and Syria deployments either.
Close, distant, doesn't matter.
Yes, yes, i know that worldview. The problem with it is, that the Russian side doesn't really ask the Ukrainian side whether they want to be considered part of the same culture or not, as shown here.
Russia has that problem with many other nations too.
Which is where the mythical effectiveness of "russophobic propaganda" comes from.
There is no greater boon to "russophobic propaganda" than Russia's demonstrated attitude towards its neighbor's sovereignty.
No, people in Donbass now suffer and die because they are being governed by Moscow acceptable warlords. They supported them, because they thought after the war tones down, in few years Moscow will annex them and sponsor rebuilding their part of country up to Russian standards of wealth and infrastructure, which are somewhat better than Ukrainian ones always were.
Unfortunately for them, Putin remembers how much did it cost to rebuild Chechenya cost after the war, so he's not that eager about this, and dragging the conflict on has other uses too.
Everyone knows Russia doesn't want the western chunk of Ukraine, where most of the nationalists are located, it would be a very painful occupation, so lets not speak in technicalities. According to "NATO propaganda" itself, Putin has an invasion plan drawn up, divided in 3 stages, realization of which can be put on hold at each stage, based on how fighting and international politics turn out, and even the most ambitious, full 3 stage variant covers something around half of Ukraine's territory, rather than the whole place.
And the Donbass separatists totally don't cause civilian deaths and injuries, right...
So what US and NATO missiles are Baltic States and Poland launchpads for?
Who the hell do you think NATO is, some kind of western version of Hamas?
Very, very expensive healing. Which is what the locals' miscalculation came from. No one wants to pay for that, and Russia would rather just encourage emigration to fill its own demographic shortages, better russified Ukrainians than importing migrants from the Turkic, often Muslim ex-soviet states to the south.
You think that, yet talk about propaganda, and still accurately regurgitate the Russian government approved vision of the Ukrainian Civil War...
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Admiral Chekov
Well-known member
Syria's legitimate government officially asked for Russia's help. The US has waged war in way more countries totally uninvited. Syria is much closer to Russia than 99% of the US-invaded countries are to US borders. Religious extremism in Syria was a direct threat to Russia. Sure, there are elements of "foreign adventure" to Russia's involvement in Syria, but it's by miles more justified than most of the conflicts US has been involved in lately
As for the the rest of your points - same old stuff, unsupported by facts. As I said before, I'm Russian/Ukrainian. I have relatives in Ukraine and know of the stuff that goes on there. I've stated my attitude and I won't go away
As for the the rest of your points - same old stuff, unsupported by facts. As I said before, I'm Russian/Ukrainian. I have relatives in Ukraine and know of the stuff that goes on there. I've stated my attitude and I won't go away
I didn't say Assad of all people didn't want it, its his ass that it was saving after all, i said Russians weren't asked if they want to support such adventure with blood and taxes.
Fewer Than Half of Russians Support Syria Campaign, Poll Says - The Moscow Times
The share of Russians who support President Vladimir Putin’s military intervention in Syria has dropped from more than half to less than half since August 2017, according to an independent Levada Center survey.
www.themoscowtimes.com
Lol, still not close, its 2 seas and a NATO country away.
Russia has much closer religious extremism problems that affect it more, some on, and some even within its borders.
So are you Russian or Ukrainian by self identification? Do you speak the Ukrainian language on native level, and regularly use it in contact with at least family?
Terthna
Professional Lurker
If they think Ukraine is still their country, they should not be allowed to serve in the US Army. We cannot afford to have divided loyalties in our armed forces.
Don't get your panties tied up over someone using brevity to relay a point.
I'm Filipino-American... and identify as American and am loyal to America and love and am far more loyal to America then the Philippines. It doesn't mean that I don't feel affinity for the Philippines and metaphorically would tell China or foreign funded Muslim or Marxist extremists to BTFO of a country I have strong affinity for. I might even refer to them using collective or group pronouns that apparently trigger you.
Like seriously, it's comments like yours that prevent people from having adult conversations. Taking a pretty blah sentiment and dragging it to some retarded extreme.