Philosophy Was the West admitting wrong doing with Slavery and Colonialism the source of its current issues? by tiredfromlife2019

Morphic Tide

Well-known member
Indeed.West without Chrystianity is only unimportant part of Asia.Unless we become Christianitas again,we would be nothing more then that.
You calling Rome pre-Constantine an "unimportant part of Asia"? Can you lot please shut it with Christianity being this ultra-special unique thing when it only got off the ground by being stubborn assholes until a lucky break with the hegemonizing Empire let it go mad?

Seriously, any real moral point you claim is rendered bullshit egotism by the dramatic horseshit around "heresies" like Arianism or Monophysites. What the everloving fuck do the underlying issues have for 90% or more of the population not interested in arcane minutia?

No, really, what is the fundamental need for Jesus as independently-divine Son-Of-God (and note this emerges directly from the No Limits Fallacy monotheism) versus Jesus as Final-Super-Prophet, and what the hell is the relevance in the goddamn first place of whether Jesus is by some inscrutable mechanism a separate duality of man and divine or a single amalgamated nature?

It's like fucking executing engineers over their hilarious transformations to ease the math because they aren't using "real science". What the fuck is the point of this quite often literally murderous obsession with total theological hegemony?
 

ATP

Well-known member
You calling Rome pre-Constantine an "unimportant part of Asia"? Can you lot please shut it with Christianity being this ultra-special unique thing when it only got off the ground by being stubborn assholes until a lucky break with the hegemonizing Empire let it go mad?

Seriously, any real moral point you claim is rendered bullshit egotism by the dramatic horseshit around "heresies" like Arianism or Monophysites. What the everloving fuck do the underlying issues have for 90% or more of the population not interested in arcane minutia?

No, really, what is the fundamental need for Jesus as independently-divine Son-Of-God (and note this emerges directly from the No Limits Fallacy monotheism) versus Jesus as Final-Super-Prophet, and what the hell is the relevance in the goddamn first place of whether Jesus is by some inscrutable mechanism a separate duality of man and divine or a single amalgamated nature?

It's like fucking executing engineers over their hilarious transformations to ease the math because they aren't using "real science". What the fuck is the point of this quite often literally murderous obsession with total theological hegemony?

Nope.You should read my post.Current Europe without Chrystianity is unimportant part of Asia.Romans made empire thanks to their law and greek philosophy - but it died,and both - roman law and greek philosophy - survived in catholic church.
And it is last live european tradition now.Kill it,like leftist want,and you would have nothing.

And i do not want kill science,becouse leftist do that arleady.You could not have science without Truth,and leftist belive,that Truth do not exist.
 

Morphic Tide

Well-known member
You should read my post.Current Europe without Chrystianity is unimportant part of Asia.
You only said "the West", geographic and bureaucratic barriers do plenty to force distinction from Asia. Much as they do to force a lot of difference within "Asia".

And it is last live european tradition now.Kill it,like leftist want,and you would have nothing.
Did mainland Europe spontaneously cease to be a series of Civil Law countries without me noticing?

You could not have science without Truth,and leftist belive,that Truth do not exist.
Catholic flip-flopping, Jewish scientists, and accomplishments in the BC contradict you. Christianity is not that special, the faith naturally attracts hegemonizing assholes with logically impossible No Limits Fallacies and obsession with continuity.

You don't have a Problem of Evil if you don't insist on a creator who is all-powerful beyond the needs of a First Cause, all knowing of the consequence of being the First Cause, and at the same time benevolent towards all.

And that's not even the only massive philosophical clusterfuck of Christianity's foundations! Just the most well-known because it's the most obvious.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
@Morphic Tide we get it, you have problems with Christianity.
But none of your complaints seem to relate at all to the point ATP was actually making, which is that the West's abandonment of its dominant religion (ie Christianity) is strongly correlated with the West's overall decline.
Could be debated whether it's cause or effect. Do people become decadent because they cease to be religious, or do they become indifferent to religion because they are decadent?

We could have a big long thread on this topic. I have some ideas on it myself.
 

ATP

Well-known member
You only said "the West", geographic and bureaucratic barriers do plenty to force distinction from Asia. Much as they do to force a lot of difference within "Asia".


Did mainland Europe spontaneously cease to be a series of Civil Law countries without me noticing?


Catholic flip-flopping, Jewish scientists, and accomplishments in the BC contradict you. Christianity is not that special, the faith naturally attracts hegemonizing assholes with logically impossible No Limits Fallacies and obsession with continuity.

You don't have a Problem of Evil if you don't insist on a creator who is all-powerful beyond the needs of a First Cause, all knowing of the consequence of being the First Cause, and at the same time benevolent towards all.

And that's not even the only massive philosophical clusterfuck of Christianity's foundations! Just the most well-known because it's the most obvious.
1.geographic barriers do not count on one mass land.Continents are separated by water,Europe count as different continent only thanks to mix of Aristotle philosophy,roman law and christian morality.Remove that,and you have nothing.

2.What cyvil law? they are oligarhies cosplaing as cyvil law,overrun by shia law now.

3.Science mean law of nature which could be found.Possible only IF we have laws of nature.Possible only IF somebody made that laws.Jews belive in God,too.And greek philosophers abadonned pagan gods and belived in God.

No problem with evil without christianity? then,if there were no church,people would be angels? History showed otherwise.
Before chrystianity people enslaved each other and called it good.Only thanks to Church it ended,and those who enslave now must pretend,that they do not.

MOST IMPORTANT - EUROPE IS CITY BUILT ON 3 HILLS - ACROPOL,CAPITOL AND GOLGOTHA.You do not like it? fine,remove chrystianity - but you just removed Europe,too.
And all you have is unimportant headland of Asia,like some chineese commie said.
 
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Morphic Tide

Well-known member
Continents are separated by water
...Europe, Asia, and Africa are one landnass in modern times, and we know for a very thourough fact that there was a land bridge connecting this to the Americas.

Culture has very little to do with it. Asia Minor has rarely had noteable cultural similarity to SE Asia, and the Mediteranian coast for literal ages had more similarity across it than even a week's travel inland.
What cyvil law? they are oligarhies cosplaing as cyvil law,overrun by shia law now.
They are not remotely "overrun with" Sharia Law, the on-the-ground practicality is leaving enclaves of Middle Eastern people to enforce the rules of their homelands, not the actual broad legal system itself. Show me swaths of Europeans in blood being held to Sharia Law at large by their official state.

And if you think the oligarchy is in any way new, need I remind you that Civil Law was devised by a fully fledged Emperor and it took to the 1200s, nearly a thousand years, to start seeing the explicit exceptions for aristocrats go away?

Possible only IF somebody made that laws.
A deliberate designer with the capacity to change them afterwords, as with No Limits Omnipotent God, would be counter-indicated by the existence of static natural law holding true across history. Which is what is observed, we have literally discovered nebulae by double-checking millennia old Chineese astronomy.

Unless, of course, you ascribe some inscrutable reason for said being to behave unlike any provable actor in existence with them having total satisfaction with their initial set of laws, despite also describing it as changing the rules regarding access to Heaven with the advent of Christ.

And lets not get into the utter clusterfuck that is Satan and Hell through the years...
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
No problem with evil without christianity? then,if there were no church,people would be angels? History showed otherwise.
Before chrystianity people enslaved each other and called it good.Only thanks to Church it ended,and those who enslave now must pretend,that they do not.
He's making a philosophical argument, not saying there's no evil without Christianity.

The problem of evil is laid out as follows (with some variations):
  1. A perfectly powerful being can prevent any evil.
  2. A perfectly good being will prevent evil as far as he can.
  3. God is perfectly powerful and good.
  4. So, if a perfectly powerful and good God exists, there will be no evil.
  5. There is evil.
  6. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.
It's a fair point of debate and meditation though hardly as ironclad as many like to pretend.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
Indeed.West without Chrystianity is only unimportant part of Asia.Unless we become Christianitas again,we would be nothing more then that.
Sorry, but I don't agree. Western civilization is not the sole intellectual property of Christianity; and that religion having a resurgance in power won't solve nearly as many problems as you think it would.
 

Morphic Tide

Well-known member
It's a fair point of debate and meditation though hardly as ironclad as many like to pretend.
Yeah, it can be worked around in a logical worldview, but the amount of prior assumptions needed to do so is... Wildly more than anything not derived from Judaism. Generally speaking, the more extreme an actor the First Cause is and the more dramatic the proclaimed imbalance between "Virtue" and "Sin" as cosmic phenomena, the more workarounds and axioms you need to make it reasonable.

But it's very difficult to come up with something that cannot be logical. Total nonsense and inexplicable contradiction as needed is actually quite hard to manage. It's that at a certain point this gets to the point of "Are You Fucking Kidding Me?", and Christianity's active refusal of historic syncretism to the point of active malice to all other worldviews, including literal wars over internal disagreements on the minutia, very much reaches that point.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
A deliberate designer with the capacity to change them afterwords, as with No Limits Omnipotent God, would be counter-indicated by the existence of static natural law holding true across history. Which is what is observed, we have literally discovered nebulae by double-checking millennia old Chineese astronomy.

Unless, of course, you ascribe some inscrutable reason for said being to behave unlike any provable actor in existence with them having total satisfaction with their initial set of laws, despite also describing it as changing the rules regarding access to Heaven with the advent of Christ.

And lets not get into the utter clusterfuck that is Satan and Hell through the years...

Sometimes it helps to identify the underlying, unspoken assumptions. In this case, one of yours seems to be that the actions and policies of a Deity should be easily understandable to a mortal human.
Also, let me point out that much of what a lot of people think they know about Satan, Hell, and so on comes not from the Bible at all, but from traditions derived from Dante, Milton, etc.
A good deal of that stuff is not only not in the Bible, but contradicts what the Bible actually says.

Yeah, it can be worked around in a logical worldview, but the amount of prior assumptions needed to do so is... Wildly more than anything not derived from Judaism. Generally speaking, the more extreme an actor the First Cause is and the more dramatic the proclaimed imbalance between "Virtue" and "Sin" as cosmic phenomena, the more workarounds and axioms you need to make it reasonable.

But it's very difficult to come up with something that cannot be logical. Total nonsense and inexplicable contradiction as needed is actually quite hard to manage. It's that at a certain point this gets to the point of "Are You Fucking Kidding Me?", and Christianity's active refusal of historic syncretism to the point of active malice to all other worldviews, including literal wars over internal disagreements on the minutia, very much reaches that point.

What are you even on about there? Are you complaining about God allowing bad things to happen, or something else entirely?

Meanwhile, let's chuck Special Relativity in the trashcan, shall we? It's obviously a lot of doubletalk and trying to have things both ways at once. And as for Quantum Mechanics... oh boy...
And the whole concept of nuclear power? Atoms are indivisible by definition! It's what the word atomos means. Isn't it obvious to any thinking man that self-contradictory things cannot be true?
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
And the whole concept of nuclear power? Atoms are indivisible by definition! It's what the word atomos means. Isn't it obvious to any thinking man that self-contradictory things cannot be true?

Technically, atoms are indivisible because they are the lowest state at which different types of matter exist.If you go below the atoms, you cannot have matter anymore - just a random subatomic soup.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
Technically, atoms are indivisible because they are the lowest state at which different types of matter exist.If you go below the atoms, you cannot have matter anymore - just a random subatomic soup.

Well, not really. Nuclear fission results in isotopes of other elements - small atoms than the one that split, but still atoms.
 

ATP

Well-known member
...Europe, Asia, and Africa are one landnass in modern times, and we know for a very thourough fact that there was a land bridge connecting this to the Americas.

Culture has very little to do with it. Asia Minor has rarely had noteable cultural similarity to SE Asia, and the Mediteranian coast for literal ages had more similarity across it than even a week's travel inland.

They are not remotely "overrun with" Sharia Law, the on-the-ground practicality is leaving enclaves of Middle Eastern people to enforce the rules of their homelands, not the actual broad legal system itself. Show me swaths of Europeans in blood being held to Sharia Law at large by their official state.

And if you think the oligarchy is in any way new, need I remind you that Civil Law was devised by a fully fledged Emperor and it took to the 1200s, nearly a thousand years, to start seeing the explicit exceptions for aristocrats go away?


A deliberate designer with the capacity to change them afterwords, as with No Limits Omnipotent God, would be counter-indicated by the existence of static natural law holding true across history. Which is what is observed, we have literally discovered nebulae by double-checking millennia old Chineese astronomy.

Unless, of course, you ascribe some inscrutable reason for said being to behave unlike any provable actor in existence with them having total satisfaction with their initial set of laws, despite also describing it as changing the rules regarding access to Heaven with the advent of Christ.

And lets not get into the utter clusterfuck that is Satan and Hell through the years...

1.Asia and Africa are connected,but Europe is simply part of Asia.That is difference.Only thing which could made Europe differ is western culture - created by church by mixing greek philosophy,roman law and christian morality.
Remove that,and there is nothing european left.
Even those who fight church still use church belivs,like freedom,or even existence of person.

2.Oligarhy is nothing new,but oligarchy which do not even try to pretend that they care about law,like UE now,must fall quickly.Venetia lasted almost 1000 years as oligarcht becouse they tried enforce law,and not showed to masses that they are over it.

3.Do you knew how much probable is universe with laws that allow us live ? some astronomer said that more probably is tornado making Being 737 from spare parts fully operational is more probable.

And lucyper is easy to explain - he is loose,and he want us to be loosers,too.Very human attitude,i could undarstandt him.
 

Morphic Tide

Well-known member
In this case, one of yours seems to be that the actions and policies of a Deity should be easily understandable to a mortal human.
Why shouldn't a conscious actor be understandable by other conscious actors when we do not actually have material examples of inability to be understood? This is a prior assumption on top of the prior assumptions that the First Cause God even exists, that it's an actor in the first place, that it's immaterial and thus unfalsifiable, that it somehow reproduces as an immaterial being in fashion that makes "son" a meaningful distinction, that its divinity is a heritable characteristic for its son to be independently divine, that said inherited divinity is a separate but equal part of said son...

You can reduce these prior assumptions with reasoning, but this spirals to vast reams actively working around the surface-level issues ever increasingly detached from scripture. And because of the obsession with Truth as a static taken on faith, the scripture cannot change to ease the problem by including such clarifications in additions to the "core".

Also, let me point out that much of what a lot of people think they know about Satan, Hell, and so on comes not from the Bible at all, but from traditions derived from Dante, Milton, etc.
It's still what the general body of "faithful" think of, to the point of being an active thorn in the side of Catholicism. The Problem of Evil is much less an issue for this lay interpretation of Christianity that was a very long-standing historic norm because it passively accrued mythology giving opposing causes plugging those holes.

Are you complaining about God allowing bad things to happen, or something else entirely?
It's starting with describing the underlying nature of The Problem of Evil as a logic problem and moving into how Christianity's obsession with being "The Truth" ends up with issues for the sheer amount of exclusion. Saying that everything in the BC was wrong one way or another is quite the mountain of a claim, and unlike with science they can't show anything is wrong.

Entirely ignoring the near omnipresence of supposed followers not remotely adhering to doctrine in their personal beliefs turning "official doctrine" into an Ivory Tower fart-sniffing matter, long before secular views. Hence the witch hunts. And also werewolves, of all things.

Meanwhile, let's chuck Special Relativity in the trashcan, shall we? It's obviously a lot of doubletalk and trying to have things both ways at once. And as for Quantum Mechanics... oh boy...
The difference is that all of those have experiments one can do which would prove them wrong. These experiments have been done and the results fit with the theory, no matter how counter-intuitive those theories are. The double slit experiment is a thing literally showing wave-particle duality. Where's the experiments to prove Christian theology wrong?

And the whole concept of nuclear power? Atoms are indivisible by definition! It's what the word atomos means. Isn't it obvious to any thinking man that self-contradictory things cannot be true?
Atoms got that name because they are the smallest unit of chemistry and such was thought the smallest foundation of matter (hence "(Al)Chemical Elements", calling back to the antiquity theory of Four Elements of matter), but eventually it was proven there was lower-level phenomena showing atoms had constituent components...

And the name stuck, because that's the name it was first given. Holdover vocabulary is a thing. Look up "Minim" in music theory for another example of this. "Semi Demi Hemi Quasai Minim" is a thing that exists, being 1/8th of what used to be "the smallest duration a note can take". Also "the modern period" starting in the 1500s.

Asia and Africa are connected,but Europe is simply part of Asia.That is difference.
How wide does the border need to be to be "connected" versus "part of", and at what point is the difference of Europe from the Middle East from China enough to ignore the geology? The Ural Mountains in particular are a distinct land border that imposes some travel limitations, for all they are no Alps.

Oligarhy is nothing new,but oligarchy which do not even try to pretend that they care about law,like UE now,must fall quickly.
Civil Law has survived several instances of this. Hell, Anglosphere Common Law has gone through this courtesy of Bad Kings. And the European Union is not a hegemon nor a sovereign, Eastern Europe routinely tells it to fuck off about one thing or another and France is getting increasingly militant about maintaining secular rule in thorough contradiction of you saying the place is "overrun with Sharia law".

Do you knew how much probable is universe with laws that allow us live ?
Mere improbability is not enough. You need to show it's concretely more likely to have God, with actual numbers, not just dismiss "It Just Happened" because "it's obscenely improbable".
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
Why shouldn't a conscious actor be understandable by other conscious actors when we do not actually have material examples of inability to be understood?

I take it you've never worked for Tech Support. I have, and believe me, "inability to understand" is something I have encountered way too many examples of.
Note that I said "easily understood" - not "understood at all". Please parse what I say more carefully.

This is a prior assumption on top of the prior assumptions that the First Cause God even exists, that it's an actor in the first place, that it's immaterial and thus unfalsifiable, that it somehow reproduces as an immaterial being in fashion that makes "son" a meaningful distinction, that its divinity is a heritable characteristic for its son to be independently divine, that said inherited divinity is a separate but equal part of said son...

Atheist's gonna atheist. Do you want to discuss, or do you just want to spew canned talking-points? Because to have a sane conversation we need to stick to more-or-less one topic, and people like you tend to go all over the place at once.

You can reduce these prior assumptions with reasoning, but this spirals to vast reams actively working around the surface-level issues ever increasingly detached from scripture. And because of the obsession with Truth as a static taken on faith, the scripture cannot change to ease the problem by including such clarifications in additions to the "core".

Dude...
If the people who run Organized Religion (tm) were allowed to change the Bible, they would rewrite it to say that God put them in charge and that everyone else exists to be their slaves.
As opposed to having to pretend it says that, and persecute anyone who points out that it doesn't.

It's still what the general body of "faithful" think of, to the point of being an active thorn in the side of Catholicism. The Problem of Evil is much less an issue for this lay interpretation of Christianity that was a very long-standing historic norm because it passively accrued mythology giving opposing causes plugging those holes.


It's starting with describing the underlying nature of The Problem of Evil as a logic problem and moving into how Christianity's obsession with being "The Truth" ends up with issues for the sheer amount of exclusion. Saying that everything in the BC was wrong one way or another is quite the mountain of a claim, and unlike with science they can't show anything is wrong.

Entirely ignoring the near omnipresence of supposed followers not remotely adhering to doctrine in their personal beliefs turning "official doctrine" into an Ivory Tower fart-sniffing matter, long before secular views. Hence the witch hunts. And also werewolves, of all things.

Yeah the average peasant back in the Middle Ages was illiterate, and also a bit too preoccupied with such mundane concerns as getting the crops in at harvest time so that he and his family wouldn't starve come winter, not dying of the Plague, and staying out of the way of the "nobility" when they fought wars against each other... to concern himself much with the abstract intricacies of Thomistic philosophy.
In all, he had much better excuses for his ignorance than someone like you.

The difference is that all of those have experiments one can do which would prove them wrong. These experiments have been done and the results fit with the theory, no matter how counter-intuitive those theories are. The double slit experiment is a thing literally showing wave-particle duality. Where's the experiments to prove Christian theology wrong?

Have you personally done those experiments, or been there to watch while someone else did? Or are you just taking what the "Science!" priesthood tell you on faith?

But that's not the main point here - the point I was making, which seems to have gone over your head, was that understanding what something like the "double-slit" experiment is meant to demonstrate requires a willingness to listen and understand some complex and at times counter-intuitive ideas.
If you refused to engage your intellect because you'd already made up your mind that it was all rubbish, you'd never get to understand.

Atoms got that name because they are the smallest unit of chemistry and such was thought the smallest foundation of matter (hence "(Al)Chemical Elements", calling back to the antiquity theory of Four Elements of matter), but eventually it was proven there was lower-level phenomena showing atoms had constituent components...

Did you really think I did not know this? The point is that we still say "atoms" even though we now know that they aren't literally what that word implies.
 

ATP

Well-known member
How wide does the border need to be to be "connected" versus "part of", and at what point is the difference of Europe from the Middle East from China enough to ignore the geology? The Ural Mountains in particular are a distinct land border that imposes some travel limitations, for all they are no Alps.


Civil Law has survived several instances of this. Hell, Anglosphere Common Law has gone through this courtesy of Bad Kings. And the European Union is not a hegemon nor a sovereign, Eastern Europe routinely tells it to fuck off about one thing or another and France is getting increasingly militant about maintaining secular rule in thorough contradiction of you saying the place is "overrun with Sharia law".


Mere improbability is not enough. You need to show it's concretely more likely to have God, with actual numbers, not just dismiss "It Just Happened" because "it's obscenely improbable".

1.If entire border of supposed continent is small mountains,it is not another continent.And all what made it different is cyvilisation.Which was created by catholic church.Kill it,and there would be no Europe.
But world,and Church would still exist.As existed before first Greek philosophers appeared.

2.Bad Kings do not try impose their sick vision on everybody in their kingdom,only take money.Tyrants could hold,idiot leftist could not.At least not without putting 10% of population in gulags.

3.It is not mere improbability.If our Universe was not wery carefully designed,then it would be arleady collapsed or keep expanding without creating even one star.
 

CockyVampire67

Climate change denier
2.Bad Kings do not try impose their sick vision on everybody in their kingdom,only take money.Tyrants could hold,idiot leftist could not.At least not without putting 10% of population in gulags.

Why not though? You can do both. Divine right of kings is thing after all.
 

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