The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
But anyway, I would love this story to progress too. Only good Minbari is a dead Minbari.
Meh, they were made up of their past. Faced extinction at the hands of the Shadows, only to be saved by the Vorlons delivering their Prophet (Valen) and a star base to anchor their fleets.

I'd like to see the Minbari get back their own, and, frankly, I'd like to see Jha'dur get her just desserts. Never liked her as a character even as authors try to give her some relateable reason for all the genocide. She still needs a PPG to the back of her head.
 

Harlock

I should have expected that really
For a long time the final scene was going to be Jha'dur chatting with Admiral Hamato who thanks her for her help and then shoots her :p

With more of this AU planned in the Shadow War she serves a useful role telling people how wrong they are. But yeah she's not a good person and if she seems more chilled in later years its only because diplomacy serves her ambitions best at that given time. Earthforce knows it but the politicians want to make nice.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
Meh, they were made up of their past. Faced extinction at the hands of the Shadows, only to be saved by the Vorlons delivering their Prophet (Valen) and a star base to anchor their fleets.

They were sanctimonious puppets who never really got humbled.

So I can kinda see why so many fans fucking hate them. They never really broke the programming or became more than they were and the revalation that the Vorlons engineered them to be cannon fodder and doomed them to die so that humanity could live did nothing to their society.

When it should have torn it apart and caused a massive crisis of faith.

Granted I'm one of the few fans who thinks the Centauri should have surpassed them during the Snadow War and taken their rightful place as the top dog of the younger races....until the Drakh screwed them any way.

For a long time the final scene was going to be Jha'dur chatting with Admiral Hamato who thanks her for her help and then shoots her :p

With more of this AU planned in the Shadow War she serves a useful role telling people how wrong they are. But yeah she's not a good person and if she seems more chilled in later years its only because diplomacy serves her ambitions best at that given time. Earthforce knows it but the politicians want to make nice.

The irony is that her knowledge of genetic engineering might be essential to freeing the Galaxy of its gen-modded stagnation and narrowed tech fields.

Her "legacy" could be saving them all from the Vorlon and Shadows engineering and I can see nothing more amusing to that spiteful twat than that. :ROFLMAO:
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
They never really broke the programming or became more than they were and the revalation that the Vorlons engineered them to be cannon fodder and doomed them to die so that humanity could live did nothing to their society.
Umm...you did watch the show right? Minbari and Human souls were merging/exchanging and points to a mingled purpose, not one above the other.
They were sanctimonious puppets who never really got humbled.
Sure, a lot were portrayed as extremely arrogant. So are a lot of the humans we see portrayed. However, we get a MUCH smaller sample size of Minbari vs Humans to compare arrogance levels with. Delenn and Lenir were both NOT arrogant to a high degree.

As for humbling...well, they had their asses humbled in the last Shadow War before the Vorlons and Valen (Sinclair) saved their bacon. It's just a lot easier as a race to remember that you triumphed, especially since they've had a millenia since of reasons to BE arrogant.

When it should have torn it apart and caused a massive crisis of faith.

Umm..you do remember they suffered through a civil war right?
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
Umm...you did watch the show right? Minbari and Human souls were merging/exchanging and points to a mingled purpose, not one above the other.

Exactly...dying so that humanity would thrive.

The "mingled" purpose was that the Minbari were obsolete and their duty was now to pass on their legacy to humanity. To enrich their essence by the transference of souls and cultures.

And that was due to Vorlon meddling.



, a lot were portrayed as extremely arrogant. So are a lot of the humans we see portrayed.

And the humans pay for it, dearly, as do the Centauri and the Narn.

The Minbari just get cucked and smile about it.

They become Sweden.

Umm..you do remember they suffered through a civil war right?

For the right to be even more dutiful puppets, or for the Warrior Class to go on a conquering spree.

Edit- There was a resolution- But there was no justice apart from the ancients being driven out of the Galaxy which admittedly was pretty awesome.

Everyone was still trapped by their tampering though. Doomed to replace them but not grow beyond them.
 
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The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
The "mingled" purpose was that the Minbari were obsolete and their duty was now to pass on their legacy to humanity. To enrich their essence by the transference of souls and cultures.
I never got that from the show. What drew you to that conclusion?

Everyone was still trapped by their tampering though. Doomed to replace them but not grow beyond them.
That's a philosophical debate between nature and nurture. It's also a conclusion I don't agree with.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
I never got that from the show. What drew you to that conclusion?

That it was happening? Their bieth rates began declining, precipitously and they seemed to begin allowing more and more tech transfer

That's a philosophical debate between nature and nurture. It's also a conclusion I don't agree with.

I don't think it is? They gen modded the whole galaxy and that's a matter of Canon.

This was never in so far as we know overcome and again the falling star episode has humans become Vorlon 2.0 and even relocate to their former homeworld
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
Birth rates were never really gone into depth on the show, but I have a feeling the complete ritualization of Minbari lives is what's directly responsible for that...not something the Vorlons did.

As for what Humanity becomes...I think that was left open ended enough that I'll just agree to disagree with you regarding what humanity becomes.
 

Harlock

I should have expected that really
The irony is that her knowledge of genetic engineering might be essential to freeing the Galaxy of its gen-modded stagnation and narrowed tech fields.

Her "legacy" could be saving them all from the Vorlon and Shadows engineering and I can see nothing more amusing to that spiteful twat than that. :ROFLMAO:

It is a very good point and I think she had already cracked most of that, it's canon for instance that she made the poison that nearly killed Kosh so she must have studied Vorlons somehow.

I guess it depends who she hates more which is going to be hard to answer :p
 

Culsu

Agent of the Central Plasma
Founder
It is a very good point and I think she had already cracked most of that, it's canon for instance that she made the poison that nearly killed Kosh so she must have studied Vorlons somehow.

I guess it depends who she hates more which is going to be hard to answer :p
Somehow I think it wouldn't be out of character for her to make a list on a chalkboard in a sunny living room while enjoying a cup of tea. She's... that sort of upbeat genocidal maniac, tbh.
 

Vlad_Dracul89

Well-known member
The Minbari just get cucked and smile about it.
They become Sweden.

I could imagine them to become Weimar Republic, so later they can un-cuck themselves.

How about if Human politicians forced president to humiliate Minbari after all, at least symbolically, since it's so important for them?

Sign sole responsibility for the war and apologize, on their knees, in front of Human memorial.

Sure, Jankowski was dumb-dumb, but could be argued that his attack was provoked by Minbari themselves, so he did nothing wrong. Minbari don't lie, unless they do, after all.
 

Vlad_Dracul89

Well-known member
Neroon: "I ask you: Do you want total war? If necessary, do you want a war more total and radical than anything that we could even imagine today?" (building literal Star Killer)

Morden smiling in the shadows...

(Yes, Stellaris influence on my mind again, so Minbari and Vorlons could become Crisis, using even Thirdspace aliens to annihilate others and Humans would be Custodians. Centauri would just wait for opportunity like a-holes they are)
 
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Harlock

I should have expected that really
Idea I was working with is that even in the current situation there is going to be serious resentment on Minbar as most people won't know how precarious their position was. Branmer's overall strategy wasn't a bad one given the circumstances against him but he really needed to end on a win.
He wanted that raid on Earth to work, to knock out some of the EA's infrastructure and show they were still vulnerable to the Minbari. THat should have been enough to force a peace leaving Minbari honour more or less intact. In some of the background stuff it talks about how his clan were originally cavalry based warriors who were experts at raiding behind enemy lines and striking critical targets. He would have presented the hit on Earth as the modern version of this and a good place to tie things up.

Except of course he lost and then had to endure the exact same thing as the allies raided Minbar demonstrating they were vulnerable. While he prevented catastrophe he still lost the jewel of the Minbari orbital grid and the Grey Council. THe morale damage would have been near total and while it did at least let him end the war it ended on a defeat. That isn't going to be popular.

Branmer remains in command but he is not in a strong position. He is a traditionalist and expects simple obedience but he hasn't quite grasped how much Minbari society has changed. He can't count on universal support because of his rank, those under him are questioning his decisions some of them in public. There is a more radical group led by some in the council that rejects Valens ways and seeks to go further back. THis is a little like Shakiri in the civil war but much more pronounced, fierce and with wider support.
While Branmer is focused on the Shadows he hasn't noticed the divisions or the growing calls to fix the disgrace of the war by putting Earth back in its place.


Now on the other hand Earth is doing better than canon. Because they ended on a win and because a lot of the League actually did help there is less bitterness. This reduces the acking Clark has but doesn't eliminate it, Earth still took heavy losses in what is seen as an unjustified war so there is still plenty of anger and hate for the Minbari.
There's also plenty who wanted to see the war go on until there was a clear victory and didn't agree with a negotiated peace, they wanted a full surrender which would of course require glassing most of Minbari space. The President wasn't ready to go that far, but plenty of others would.

Earth was strong but couldn't have taken Minbari space alone, it would have needed the Centauri for sheer numbers. The Narn and League wouldn't have been enough and the EA wasn't ready to see the Centauri gain that level of extra strength. EA didn't have the numbers after initial defeats or the necessary modern ships, they were still short ranged fuel hungry zero g ships mainly.
But by the series Omega class ships are the backbone with dozens of shiny new Warlocks at the sharp end, both designs able to range freely across Minbari territory. Not to mention of course Shadow tech under experiment. THis would give Earth the power to win a solo war without outside help, which suits Clark and the EF hardliners.


THat would be the political situation, Minbar is increasingly divided and turning away from their Valen principles while also mass producing top of the line warships. THis is for the Shadows but no one believes that and most see it as rearming for revenge. Meanwhile Earth is also churning out high end ships and mobilising because it thinks round two is inevitable.

The Narn are bouyed by their win and are adapting stolen Minbari tech making them more dangerous, and in response to both them and Earth the Centauri are also tooling up their battle fleets. In turn so is the League though less efficiently and in this scenario the Dilgar are aligning with Earth and Narn.
Tensions are high, things are getting unstable, and everyone is much better armed and ready to fight than canon. Such is the set up for the follow on.
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
So this really is world War two in space!

With the Centauri playing the role of Japan/The ROC and the Minbari playing the role of Germany and the Dilgar Francist Spain. Sitting in the corner and laughing at everyone.

And Morden grinning in the Shadows above all.

I am hyped!
 

Vlad_Dracul89

Well-known member
With all that summarized, I still feel Human society may change even more radically than Minbari, who will become vengeful bitter losers in any case. Even Neroon in future may become the very thing he swore to destroy.

If I am correct, Earth Alliance is still what word implies: alliance of old Human nation states on Earth, more or less still independent. The war against common enemy always works as the best unifier, more so if dragged into long attrition war, with more hysterical propaganda, rationing and war weariness.
So EA's military forces will seize a lot of political power regardless of what will happen further and EA's bureaucracy will centralize much faster and much more radically in order to win the war, and level of autonomy will never return. It will be just the Earth Senate and Navy, fighting over public support.

btw. Do you know the VAT tax is actually invention of the Great War? It just appeared to win the war and it was never removed :)

There doesn't have to be risk of military dictatorship, but EA may change into something more alike Terran Federation.
 

Harlock

I should have expected that really
Yeah, the EA at least at first was sort of like the EU, fairly loose and with each nation largely sovereign. Plus many nations weren't part of the initial group, it didn't represent all of humanity just the rich democracies mainly that won WW3

I think by the time of the show its more united and bigger but there are still wars between nations now and again even into the recent timeline. An external threat would help those who wish to consolidate power, and there are several rival groups legit and otherwise. Psi corps vs EF black ops for instance.

good fact about VAT :) Income tax has a similar story I think :)


Overall this is definitely a situation favourable to the Shadows, they barely need to nudge things to get their mega war which should be interesting. Things will be more aggressive and the Babylon Project itself even more doomed. More of a trade and logistics hub this time with diplomacy more of a supporting element
 

The Immortal Watch Dog

Well-known member
Hetman
Overall this is definitely a situation favourable to the Shadows, they barely need to nudge things to get their mega war which should be interesting. Things will be more aggressive and the Babylon Project itself even more doomed. More of a trade and logistics hub this time with diplomacy more of a supporting element

That makes the inevitable civil war more complicated as presumably your Babylon Station would have more machine shops and silos and storage capacity and maybe better defenses? If it's a trade hub would it be larger and have AG tech? So as to accommodate more? Or still be the hand me down it was in canon?



and formation of the ISA would be all the more crucial I should think.

Question: will you use the Orieni?
 

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