British and Americans armies of 1943 vs Soviet army of 1943

sillygoose

Well-known member
So what if the entire US and UK armies in the ETO (including air forces) magically replace the Wehrmacht et al on the Eastern Front as of April 1st 1943 and have to fight the Soviets? For the sake of argument they have as many supplies as the rail line will carry. The Soviets still get OTL Lend-Lease. How do Wallied forces fare against the Soviet forces?
 

Buba

A total creep
The Wallies get swamped?
Although their Divisions are bigger, there is - top of mind - one fourth? one third? of them versus what the Heer had?
Still, if they attack once the mud season is over then they might wing it, due to being fully motorised.
 
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The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
What really shifts the balance here is the US Army Air Corp. It waa getting pretty big, and it would easily gain air superiority over the Russian Air Force. The the bombing campaign would begin. Force the Russians to mass and against your defensive lines and then fire bomb them.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
So going over WIKIPEDIA: Keep in mind... these are just divisions activated before April 1st 1943 so... yeah.

British Army:
1 AirboUrne Division
9 ArmoUred Divisions
32 Infantry Divisions: This includes some funky units. (I discounted a reserve/training division, the 80th) But this includes the 12th Division "Sudanese Defence Force," the 11th East African Division (formed in February of 1943), 12th East African Division (disbanded on April 18th, 1943) and the 81st West African Division

British Indian Army:
1 Parachute Brigade
2 ArmoUred Divisions: 31st and 44th, neither apparently saw combat
16 Infantry Divisions: (34th only served as a garrison for Ceylon)

Australian Army:
2 ArmoUred Divisions: (both were in the process of disbanding, as was a third one disbanded in February of 1943)
12 Infantry Divisions: (including the Northern Territory Defence Force)

Canadian Army (Eh!):
2 ArmoUred Divisions
7 Infantry Divisions: (three were home defence, with one being WW1 Militia and one used to fill in other units as a reserve)

New Zealand Army:
5 Infantry Divisions: (three home defence)

South African Army:
2 ArmoUred Division: (ha! One was to be disbanded in May of 1943 but makes the cut here!)

Free Forces:
1 Parachute Brigade (Polish)
1 ArmoUred Division (Polish)
2 ArmoUred Brigade (1 Polish, 1 Czechoslovakian)
9 Infantry Divisions (2 Polish, 1 French, 6 French Colonial)
6 Infantry Brigades (1 Dutch, 1 Belgian, 1 Norwegian, 2 Greek, 1 Belgian Colonial)

United States:
3 Airborne Divisions
14 Armored Divisions
2 Cavalry Divisions (One Segregated)
58 Infantry Divisions (Two Segregated)
3 Marine Divisions

So Western Ally Totals for the Army roughly would be:
4 Airborne Divisions
32 Armored Divisions
142 Infantry Divisions
2 Cavalry Divisions
2 Parachute Brigades
2 Armored Brigades
6 Infantry Brigades
 
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Val the Moofia Boss

Well-known member
The Allies won't be able to conquer Russia. The territory is too vast, making it the perfect place for guerillas to hide out. Allied supply chains would become increasingly strained and vulnerable the further inland they go. Same problem the British faced in the War of Independence: you might be able to capture a few cities, but there is just too much land for the guerillas to hide out in and you can waste your whole life chasing them everywhere and you'll never stamp them out. Over the years, the Allies will have lost too many people to attrition and lose the will to fight, and they will have lost too much money, which risks completely toppling their economy, so they will withdraw.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
The Wallies get swamped?
Although their Divisions are bigger, there is - top of mind - one fourth? one third? of them versus what the Heer had?
Still, if they attack once the mud season is over then they might wing it, due to being fully motorised.
Normally I'd say the same, but IIRC the total manpower of the US+UK armies in 1943 are actually larger than what the Wehrmacht had on the Eastern Front. That's also not factoring in the air forces and supply, as Allied artillery was a huge factor in their combat power. Of course the question is what the supply situation is given the rail situation and partisans, plus the logistical weight of the air forces.

What really shifts the balance here is the US Army Air Corp. It waa getting pretty big, and it would easily gain air superiority over the Russian Air Force. The the bombing campaign would begin. Force the Russians to mass and against your defensive lines and then fire bomb them.
AFAIK Napalm was only available from 1944 on. The first use I can find is in Normandy as retaliation for the Germans shooting a bunch of SOE prisoners.
 
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sillygoose

Well-known member
So going over WIKIPEDIA: Keep in mind... these are just divisions activated before April 1st 1943 so... yeah.

British Army:
1 AirboUrne Division
11 ArmoUred Divisions
31 Infantry Divisions: This includes some funky units. (I discounted a reserve/training division, the 80th) But this includes the 12th Division "Sudanese Defence Force," the 11th East African Division (formed in February of 1943), and the 81st West African Division

British Indian Army:
1 Parachute Brigade
2 ArmoUred Divisions: 31st and 44th, neither apparently saw combat
16 Infantry Divisions: (34th only served as a garrison for Ceylon)

Australian Army:
2 ArmoUred Divisions: (both were in the process of disbanding, as was a third one disbanded in February of 1943)
12 Infantry Divisions: (including the Northern Territory Defence Force)

Canadian Army (Eh!):
2 ArmoUred Divisions
7 Infantry Divisions: (three were home defence, with one being WW1 Militia and one used to fill in other units as a reserve)

New Zealand Army:
5 Infantry Divisions: (three home defence)

South African Army:
2 ArmoUred Division: (ha! One was to be disbanded in May of 1943 but makes the cut here!)

Free Forces:
1 Parachute Brigade (Polish)
1 ArmoUred Division (Polish)
2 ArmoUred Brigade (1 Polish, 1 Czechoslovakian)
9 Infantry Divisions (2 Polish, 1 French, 6 French Colonial)
5 Infantry Brigades (1 Dutch, 1 Belgian, 2 Greek, 1 Belgian Colonial)

United States:
3 Airborne Divisions
14 Armored Divisions
2 Cavalry Divisions (One Segregated)
58 Infantry Divisions (Two Segregated)
3 Marine Divisions

So Western Ally Totals for the Army roughly would be:
4 Airborne Divisions
34 Armored Divisions
141 Infantry Divisions
2 Cavalry Divisions
2 Parachute Brigades
2 Armored Brigades
5 Infantry Brigades
So I did say in OP only ETO=European Theater of Operations forces as of 1943, so the ANZACs, Marines, Africans, most of the Indian army, and elements of the British army are not part of this scenario.

The Allies won't be able to conquer Russia. The territory is too vast, making it the perfect place for guerillas to hide out. Allied supply chains would become increasingly strained and vulnerable the further inland they go. Same problem the British faced in the War of Independence: you might be able to capture a few cities, but there is just too much land for the guerillas to hide out in and you can waste your whole life chasing them everywhere and you'll never stamp them out. Over the years, the Allies will have lost too many people to attrition and lose the will to fight, and they will have lost too much money, which risks completely toppling their economy, so they will withdraw.
Given that they're facing over 6 million front line Soviet troops advancing is probably a pipe dream and more likely they'll be trying to hand on by their fingernails in the defensive posture given their very limited replacement capacity (the Brits were worse off, but the US was running out of manpower even pre-Normandy due to industry demands for labor).

Question is whether they get as nasty as the Germans with anti-guerrilla operations...
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
So I did say in OP only ETO=European Theater of Operations forces as of 1943, so the ANZACs, Marines, Africans, most of the Indian army, and elements of the British army are not part of this scenario.

Oh geez... the Western Allies get crumpled. I don't even think they'll have the chance to entertain brutal anti-guerrilla operations since they'll be too busy being routed and chased back to Central Europe or whenever the Soviets run out of the ability to just willfully chase the Allied forces westward. :p
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Oh geez... the Western Allies get crumpled. I don't even think they'll have the chance to entertain brutal anti-guerrilla operations since they'll be too busy being routed and chased back to Central Europe or whenever the Soviets run out of the ability to just willfully chase the Allied forces westward. :p
I see you're an optimist ;)
There is also the factor of Wallied air forces as well...but I did mention the logistics situation (rail bottleneck) being no better than the German one.
As the Germans said: "you don't know war until you've faced the Russians"
 

Buba

A total creep
So Western Ally Totals for the Army roughly would be:
4 Airborne Divisions
32 Armored Divisions
142 Infantry Divisions
2 Cavalry Divisions
2 Parachute Brigades
2 Armored Brigades
6 Infantry Brigades
La-la land :)
Already noted that these Divisions are all over the world spread across various fronts;
Also - activated does not mean combat ready - at first glance I can see Free Polish formations which are NOT. And that's the tip of the iceberg of formations which are being organised, undergoing training, in occupation duties, or due to some oddball TOE simply not suitable for Russian front.

My guesstimate (i.e. ass-pull) is 50-60 Divisions - that what was available for Husky plus those worked up in the UK.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
My guesstimate (i.e. ass-pull) is 50-60 Divisions - that what was available for Husky plus those worked up in the UK.
Which doesn't tell the full picture given how much of the British and US armies were actually non-divisional corps and army level assets like artillery, AAA, cavalry, engineers, etc.
By 1945, operating strength reached 8.3 million. But only 2.75 million, or a third, were in the AGF. About 1,200,000 personnel were assigned to divisions and 1,500,000 to non-divisional units. Non-divisional forces included service units and some additional combat troops not initially assigned to a division.
For reference in 1943:
US MILITARY PERSONNEL (1939-1945)
YearArmy
19436,994,472

This has a claim about the planned number of divisions for Europe in late 1943:
This would leave the Army with 90 divisions-43 for the war in Europe, 7 for North Africa, 22 for the Pacific, and 18 for the continental reserve. If necessary, service troops could be organized from the eighteen reserve divisions. [33] A report of the Operations Division's Strategy Section in late December 1943 substantiated this estimate that 90 divisions would be enough to win the war, although it allocated 58 divisions for Europe and North Africa, 25 for the Pacific, and kept only 7 in the reserve. The Strategy Section recognized the possibility that the Army might not be able to activate the additional fifteen divisions and remain within the 7,700,000-man ceiling adopted in November. The economy program had released some 212,000 men for reassignment during 1943, but Selective Service had fallen behind in its inductions, and the War Department was 200,000 men short of its 7,700,000 goal. On top of this, the rotation program approved in December would require 60,000 men during 1944, and the Air Forces had requested 130,000 men for its B-29 program. Even if Selective Service were to meet its quotas in 1944 and make up the 200,000-man deficit, there would be a cushion of only 22,000 men left over from the 212,000 recovered from the economy program. Besides, the Strategy Section concluded, there were no firm requirements for the fifteen additional infantry divisions. [34]

So it looks like an estimate of 50 divisions for this scenario just from the US would be a good initial assumption. I'd imagine though rather than being able to form additional reserve divisions just like IOTL the US would have to use those extra service troops to keep up with casualties when the infantry shortage hits (due to manpower shortages resulting from army misallocations there were nowhere near enough infantry replacements to keep up with losses in 1944).

For the Brits I see varying estimates, but for 1943 it seems like 30 division/division equivalents would have been in the ETO/MTO.

So overall 80 division/division equivalents for the combined US+UK forces not counting corps and above additional formations. Keep in mind that Wallied divisions were quite a bit larger, much better equipped, overall had more firepower, and highly motorized/mechanized compared to equivalent German formations at this point in the war.

Per this chart the Germans were averaging 180 divisions on the Eastern Front in 1943. Even accounting for the smaller size of German divisions and how worn out they were that leaves the Wallies at a pretty big deficit, especially considering the replacement issues Wallied armies had in 1944.

Again without talking about the air forces either, though they would have some trouble utilizing it given the infrastructure in the East.

Speaking of which the Western armies were pretty high tech, would they be able to handle the terrain and conditions in the East? Especially given how hard a time they had logistically in Western Europe in 1944-45 despite the excellent infrastructure. It wasn't as relatively easy as North Africa where the navy could smooth over transport issues given how close coastal ports were to the front lines. Naval supply wouldn't really be much a factor here for them (outside some of the Baltic area/around Leningrad).

In comparison the Soviets:
From the spring of 1943 until the end of the war, the number of Rifle divisions increased only from 513 to 527, and that of tank and mechanized brigades from 290 to 302.
The Soviet divisions were quite a bit smaller and rarely were at TOE from this point on, plus had substantially less firepower and flexibility, but there were a lot of them and a lot of replacements.

Though none of the above factors in the air forces and limitations that might apply to them.
 

Buba

A total creep
I know about Corps and Army troops - but as their number is (roughly) tied to the number of Divisions, then IMO these are useful yardstick of coverall combat strength. And the Soviets had Army and Corps level (even if called Front and Army) assets too ...
So you ended up with 80 Divisions for the Wallies? A bit higher than I did but still in the same ballpark. I did not count the Divisions in the US as the OP specified EOT (which I understood to include the Med).
As to Soviet Rifle Divisions being understrength - true. But the deficiencies were almost always in the rifle coys, infantry heavy weapons and artillery being close to TOE. So firepower was not affected that much.

There could be logistical issues - but there will be enormous weight and volume savings on the railways not having to bring horse fodder to the front ...
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
I know about Corps and Army troops - but as their number is (roughly) tied to the number of Divisions, then IMO these are useful yardstick of coverall combat strength. And the Soviets had Army and Corps level (even if called Front and Army) assets too ...
True, but Soviet army and corps (and army group) assets were limited as of 1943 and really only grew to major proportions over the course of the year and definitely in 1944.

So you ended up with 80 Divisions for the Wallies? A bit higher than I did but still in the same ballpark. I did not count the Divisions in the US as the OP specified EOT (which I understood to include the Med).
As to Soviet Rifle Divisions being understrength - true. But the deficiencies were almost always in the rifle coys, infantry heavy weapons and artillery being close to TOE. So firepower was not affected that much.
I didn't count the ones in the US either, just averaged out the ones available over the course of 1943 in Europe.
As to material deficiencies on the Soviet side that certainly existed in 1943. It really is only in 1944 with the recovery of a lot of land, resources, people, and the expansion of L-L that the lack of firepower and equipment was no longer a significant issue. 1943 still had plenty of shortages on the Soviet side. Manpower was still available in large amounts, but was peaking.

There could be logistical issues - but there will be enormous weight and volume savings on the railways not having to bring horse fodder to the front ...
I thought most horse fodder was found in Russia? The Axis forces lived off the land as much as possible and did so quite successfully. What they generally failed at was sending things home in anticipated quantities.
 

Buba

A total creep
Soviet army and corps (and army group) assets were limited as of 1943 and really only grew to major proportions over the course of the year and definitely in 1944.
Oh, live and learn.
I thought that by 2Q1943 the war material crisis was over.

Hardworking horses need oats, it is not enough to send them out to pasture (which also is very time consuming). So I'd expect oats to have made a large portion of shipments from the Vaterland.
 

sillygoose

Well-known member
Oh, live and learn.
I thought that by 2Q1943 the war material crisis was over.
As a crisis it largely was by 3Q, but some shortages remained until 1944. Remember in terms of food Russian factory workers were still dying at work due to starvation as late as 1944.

Hardworking horses need oats, it is not enough to send them out to pasture (which also is very time consuming). So I'd expect oats to have made a large portion of shipments from the Vaterland.
I'll have to do some research on that one. AFAIK they tried to source that in Ukraine.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
How long and far is the Soviet advance going to be? Is it like the Rhine by Autumn or we going all the way to the Atlantic after the initial shattering?

Do the Western Allies get the Italian Army as Co-Belligerents on September 1st regardless? 😛 :LOL:

I really want the British Colonials and ANZACs to invavde through Persia or some nonsense like that.

Maybe the Japanese allow foreign shipping to Vladivostok via Lend Lease and the Pacific Army bursts forth World in Conflict style?
 

Buba

A total creep
How long and far is the Soviet advance going to be?
The maximum possible is two offensives of 300-500km each. After such a leap you stop to establish railroad supply as trucks alone no longer cope. It is almost like a Law of Physics :)
So, in nsuch a scenario the New Year frontline is somewhere around the USSR western border of '39.
The Wallies, being fully motorised, will do the "Run away! Run away!" better than the Germans.
Maybe the Japanese allow foreign shipping to Vladivostok via Lend Lease
In OTL they did. About half of ALL L-L reached the USSR by way of the Soviet Far East.

Russian factory workers were still dying at work due to starvation as late as 1944.
I'd attribute that more to mismanagement than to actual shortages. Or to hearsay ...
 
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sillygoose

Well-known member
I'd attribute that more to mismanagement than to actual shortages. Or to hearsay ...
Actually from this book:
The final chapter of the volume, by Donald Filtzer, assesses the demographic impact of starvation on cities in the Soviet rear. Filtzer has painstakingly compiled data from regional mortality registers to track changing rates and causes of death from 1940 to 1944. The wartime mortality crisis had two distinct phases. The first, running from late 1941 through 1942, featured skyrocketing rates of infant mortality and heighted mortality among the elderly and infirm. Although food shortage was certainly part of the picture, this phase was caused by the interconnected ordeals of evacuation, hunger, and measles and typhus epidemics among vulnerable demographic groups. The second phase, peaking in 1943 and 1944, centered on middle-aged men, aged thirty to fifty-nine, and was caused by starvation, often overlaid with tuberculosis. One of Filtzer’s claims is that wartime starvation is best analysed as part of a “starvation-tuberculosis complex”, which became the dominant cause of excess deaths (over the 1940 figures) in every home-front region except Moscow in 1943 and 1944. Filtzer’s analysis will be essential reading for anyone interested in historical demography and the war.

Lend-Lease wasn't enough to cover food shortages and ultimately what solved it was the 1944 harvest (courtesy of L-L seed and various other farming tools to replant the devastated farmland of Ukraine and Kuban, which weren't able to be properly utilized until 1944). A big part of the problem was the recovery of population by the tens of millions in 1943-44, but very little farmland was recovered intact. So while they did theoretically suddenly have much more labor the Soviets lacked horses, livestock, seed, etc. and couldn't replant the ground until L-L covered that need, but all those people needed to be fed in the interim. Part of the issue too was delayed impacts of years of malnutrition in 1941-43 as well. Overtime the effects snowball especially when coupled with diseases that swept the country like TB as a result of suppressed immune systems and many more people from many regions mixing and passing illnesses around more easily.

How long and far is the Soviet advance going to be? Is it like the Rhine by Autumn or we going all the way to the Atlantic after the initial shattering?

Do the Western Allies get the Italian Army as Co-Belligerents on September 1st regardless? 😛 :LOL:

I really want the British Colonials and ANZACs to invavde through Persia or some nonsense like that.

Maybe the Japanese allow foreign shipping to Vladivostok via Lend Lease and the Pacific Army bursts forth World in Conflict style?
Interestingly I wonder if the greater mobility (initially) of Allied forces in 1943 coupled by a more flexible high command (theoretically) would allow them to retreat to more defensible borders. By 1944 the 'eastern armies' were begging Hitler to let them retreat to the narrowest point between the Baltic and Black seas to shorten the line and allow for the concentration of forces and to free up a couple dozen divisions as a reserve. Obviously he did not, but maybe given the lack of Allied divisions they might try that and force Soviet forces to overextend their logistics while a proper defensive line is built up as well as shorten their own supply lines, eliminate partisan threats to the rear, and fall back on better air bases further west. In that case we might well see the Allied armies form 'reserve' divisions out of the rear area elements that were above need (as the article said above they could have formed about 15 such divisions) to hold fixed positions like Soviet 'fortified zone' units and where their lack of combat training would be minimized. At that point it would be a question of where they'd find enough equipment to form all of those units, as they'd need a lot of firepower to make up for their inadequacies.

Then we have the issue of the US and UK forces lacking heavy tanks or weapons to deal with Soviet heavy tanks. IIRC the 17 pounder wasn't in service yet, nor the 76mm Sherman. Just 57mm AT guns. BTW could the 1943 Sherman actually take out a T-34 at normal combat ranges?
 
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ATP

Well-known member
So what if the entire US and UK armies in the ETO (including air forces) magically replace the Wehrmacht et al on the Eastern Front as of April 1st 1943 and have to fight the Soviets? For the sake of argument they have as many supplies as the rail line will carry. The Soviets still get OTL Lend-Lease. How do Wallied forces fare against the Soviet forces?

Normally,allies would be fucked.BUT :
1.Soviet air forces sucked - Rudel bombed them during day in Ju87 in 1945 till he was out of fuel.Soviets could not attack during day,or not for long.
2.In 1941 soviet mass surrender till german start genociding them.If allies do not genocide prisoners,it would start again.
3.No Lend lease for soviets - they would practically fight on foot without trucks.
Considering that all - draw.
 

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