Derek Chauvin Trial: summer 2020 electric boogaloo

Emperor Tippy

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Don't know enough about the state and departments relevant procedure to have an opinion on whether or not Chauvin violated it or whether or not the policy was as shitty as a great many other police departments have.

Don't know enough about the actual details (as opposed to the media and BLM spin machine "details") to have an opinion on whether or not manslaughter (or the state equivalent) is a justified charge.

But murder 1? For a suspect dying in police custody who already had lethal doses of illegal drugs in his system? When those drugs produce the same symptoms as are said to have occurred in this case? That is massive amounts of reasonable doubt for a murder charge.
 

Wargamer08

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Derek Chauvin is guilty of possibly the worst crime possible in this era. Bad optics. Pretty much every complaint I’ve seen here and elsewhere all moan about how bad it “looked” for him to place his knee like that. At this point and time, bad optics matter more then evidence. They matter more then witness testimony. They matter more then justice.

Derek Chauvin is going to jail because he was filmed restraining a dangerous drug addict, and people found the way he appeared to have done so problematic.
 

Abhorsen

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But murder 1? For a suspect dying in police custody who already had lethal doses of illegal drugs in his system? When those drugs produce the same symptoms as are said to have occurred in this case? That is massive amounts of reasonable doubt for a murder charge.
He's not being charged with murder 1 though? It's murder 2 or 3.



All the relevant charges (including the manslaughter ones) have the clause "caused the death of another", and all are unintentional ones. Now if the bar of "caused the death of another" is hit, then it's easily murder 3 (extreme disregard for human life + cause of death), or with something else murder 2 (felony + cause of death).

And given that putting people in stressful positions while they are in horrible health, like very high on drugs, can kill, even without a blood choke (and this is what the state coroner found), the prosecutors could be able to show that Chauvin caused the death. Legally, it doesn't matter if he was stoned or in bad shape or whatever. The unintentionality (or at least lack of intention) is already in all of the charges, and could be considered on sentencing, but it doesn't matter now.

Now the most important fight is the jury instructions. What does it mean to say that "Chauvin caused Floyd to die". Does it mean "But for Chauvin, Floyd would have lived", or does it include "Even if Floyd was going to die, Chauvin sped it up?".
 

LordsFire

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And given that putting people in stressful positions while they are in horrible health, like very high on drugs, can kill, even without a blood choke (and this is what the state coroner found), the prosecutors could be able to show that Chauvin caused the death.

George Floyd put himself in a stressful situation. If he'd responded rationally to the cops, and not been carrying drugs, he could have gone down to the station, said 'I had no idea it was a forged 20,' and that probably would have been that. Unless they could prove he knew, it'd be hard to make that stick to him.

But he literally fought and made things worse all along the way.

If they push the Jury to rule that 'putting him in a stressful situation' was the cop's fault, not Floyd's fault, then it basically becomes impossible to police.
 

ShieldWife

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If they push the Jury to rule that 'putting him in a stressful situation' was the cop's fault, not Floyd's fault, then it basically becomes impossible to police.
Right, that is the entire thing here. Any police officer doing their job in response to George Floyd could be charged similarly with that argument. Floyd was resisting arrest, force had to be used to restrain him, any physical struggle could have exacerbated Floyd’s fentanyl overdose and potentially made it lethal.

Which is why charging Chauvin would murder is so ridiculous as well as believing that it can be fairly proved beyond a reasonable doubt.
 

Abhorsen

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George Floyd put himself in a stressful situation.
By stressful situation, I was referring to a literal physical position one can be in that makes one stressed (elevated heartbeat, etc, which doesn't help a bad heart). Being held down on the ground is one of those.

If he'd responded rationally to the cops, and not been carrying drugs, he could have gone down to the station, said 'I had no idea it was a forged 20,' and that probably would have been that. Unless they could prove he knew, it'd be hard to make that stick to him.

But he literally fought and made things worse all along the way.
This could be a defense to second degree (that Chauvin committed no felony). But this in no way legally affects whether Chauvin caused Floyd's death. It doesn't matter that Floyd put himself in danger, or anything else. All that matters is did Chauvin cause the death. And kneeling on the neck is what the state coroner found to be the cause of the heart problem causing his death, ruling it to be a homicide.

Then the question becomes third degree, and Chauvin hits the rest of that out of the park. He kept kneeling on the guy's neck after he knew Floyd had no pulse. Anyone watching that video will know Chauvin didn't give a shit what happened to Floyd. That plus cause of death is Murder 3.

If they push the Jury to rule that 'putting him in a stressful situation' was the cop's fault, not Floyd's fault, then it basically becomes impossible to police.
Right, that is the entire thing here. Any police officer doing their job in response to George Floyd could be charged similarly with that argument. Floyd was resisting arrest, force had to be used to restrain him, any physical struggle could have exacerbated Floyd’s fentanyl overdose and potentially made it lethal.

Which is why charging Chauvin would murder is so ridiculous as well as believing that it can be fairly proved beyond a reasonable doubt.

No, it's quite possible to police. It's not that Chauvin caused Floyd's death that made it a crime. It's that he clearly demonstrates he doesn't care if Floyd lives or dies while killing him that makes it a felony.

If Cedric Daven, an alt timeline Derek Chauvin, had used the same hold, but been paying attention to Floyd when he went unconscious and then let up to put him in the car, there would be no crime, even if after Floyd went unconscious he died. That wouldn't show disregard for life, and since it was at the time standard procedure, wouldn't be assault.

If Cedric Daven hadn't been paying attention, but when told by an officer that the guy was unconscious got off the neck and flipped him over, that's negligence, but probably not charged.

The illegal stuff starts when Derek Chauvin has control of an unresisting Floyd (which is definitely has begun when Floyd is unconscious). The time between when Floyd is unconscious and Chauvin is told, Chauvin is negligent as he has a duty of care to arrestees, and harming unconscious arrestees is illegal. After Chauvin is told but still is on Floyd, that's not just negligence, then it become assault or Police Brutality. And when Chauvin has his knee on the neck of a man he's just been told has no pulse, he's clearly shown he doesn't give a shit if the guy dies.
 

Abhorsen

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I will say this though charging the other officers involved when they where doing crowd control is at best a stretch. I mean you could charge them with negligence but that's about it.
Not really. They were part of the arresting officers, and all have a duty of care to people in their custody. Fortunately for them Minnesota's Felony Murder rule makes sense, so they can't be charged with murder. But yes, they do need to be charged as well for not fulfilling the duty of care owed to the arrested.
 

BlackDragon98

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I recommend everyone watch Steven Criwders stream from today.

He goes out of his way to demonstrate that what happend to Floyd was not what killed him and was not restricting his breath.



Around the hour ten mark is where he starts to get ready for it

This is just confirmation.
We all know it was fentanyl that killed him.
Billions of dollar of property damage and over a dozen innocent people killed over a druggie ODing himself to death.
This world is stupid.
 

Abhorsen

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I recommend everyone watch Steven Criwders stream from today.

He goes out of his way to demonstrate that what happend to Floyd was not what killed him and was not restricting his breath.



Around the hour ten mark is where he starts to get ready for it

And that's irrelevant. Sitting on Floyd's back could have killed him at the time, so putting the full weight on the guy with knee will kill someone in as poor of a condition as Floyd, knee on the neck or no. It makes it harder to breath, was against police protocols, and was judged to be contributing to the death. Now without fentynal, Floyd would have lived. But legally, that doesn't matter. Chauvin contributed to his death, and once that bar is hit, the rest of the picture matters. If he committed a felony, that's felony murder. He clearly showed disregard for human life, so that's murder 3 at a minimum.

 

Cherico

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And that's irrelevant. Sitting on Floyd's back could have killed him. It makes it harder to breath, was against police protocols, and was judged to be contributing to the death. Now without fentynal, he would have lived. But legally, that doesn't matter. Chauvin contributed to his death, and once that bar is hit, the rest of the picture matters. If he committed a felony, that's felony murder. He clearly showed disregard for human life, so that's murder 3 at a minimum.

I still think its manslaughter.
 

Abhorsen

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I still think its manslaughter.
For both manslaughter charges and all the murders, one needs to find that Chauvin caused Floyd's death, and all of the ones Chauvin is tried with are unintentional as well. The clearest one is murder 3:
609.195 MURDER IN THE THIRD DEGREE.
(a) Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years.

Holding a person without a pulse down by the neck would easily apply.
 

ShieldWife

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Once again, we seem to be reversing the standard of evidence that our criminal justice system is based on. The criteria for finding someone guilty isn’t that it’s theoretically possible that it could be murder, it’s proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

In all honesty though, this isn’t a real trial, it’s a political show trial. The bias created by the media and the establishment make it literally impossible for Chauvin to receive a fair trial. I’ve seen so many people nearly masturbating over the condemnation that Chauvin has received from other police on the stand: which is ridiculous. Those people have to help convict Chauvin, if they don’t their careers will be over, their lives and families will be in danger. The jurors will have to convict or else also be outed and terrorized for the rest of their lives.

I want to say that if I were on the jury the worst that Chauvin would get would be a hung jury, though I suppose if my life and the lives of my family were threatened I might not be able to take that principled stand.

Our democracy, our rule of law, is totally in shambles.
 

LordSunhawk

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I strongly recommend going to Legal Insurrection and reading their analysis of the case.

So far, it's been *brutal*... for the prosecution. Their own witnesses are making the defenses case for them, to the point where it sometimes seems like the prosecutors are deliberately sandbagging their case.
 

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