LGBT and the US Conservative Movement

DocSolarisReich

Esoteric Spaceman
The right are the most beautiful losers possible, they’ll take these stances on principles and give up ground and territory because it would be wrong to do anything and as they’ve lost everything they pushed for or wanted, they can say “at least I never fought back, at least I stood by what I believed in”

Because the so called 'right' in 'murica are actually just yesterday's revolutionaries who fundamentally agree with the currently fashionable progress cultists on every moral question, they just wish the revolution would slow down a little and use different means for the same ends for reasons of unprincipled exception and aesthetic preference.
 

Basileus_Komnenos

Imperator Romanorum Βασιλεύς των Ρωμαίων
The Church herself employs censors and censorship, under the basic principle that ‘error has no rights.’
This statement ignores Church history/politics for the last 2,000+ years full of various debates over religious tenets and philosophy.

You see, a have a problem with the Cathlic church. Specifically, that it openly defies scripture in a number of ways, especially in how it claims to be a sole intermediary between God and man, when that explicitly is a role that only Christ serves.
Umm....what?

As an actual Catholic this is not what the position of the Church is. Its a pretty big misconception like how the veneration of saints/icons is used to smear the Orthodox/Catholic Church as participating in idolatry. The position of many Protestant groups is that only faith alone is needed to attain salvation, but the position of the Church, and thus that of Priesthood's function as an intermediary to guide the faithful. This was the reason why in ancient Biblical times God sent out various prophets to help guide the faithful whenever they lost their way.

It should answer your question, as there is only One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
No, no it doesn't actually as you're looking at it without looking at the necessary context behind it.. This statement was made well before the schism of the Church and subsequent splintering after the Protestant Reformation.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Because the so called 'right' in 'murica are actually just yesterday's revolutionaries who fundamentally agree with the currently fashionable progress cultists on every moral question, they just wish the revolution would slow down a little and use different means for the same ends for reasons of unprincipled exception and aesthetic preference.

Yeah, you've made it pretty clear here that you're more interested in lumping people together in your own mental box than actually understanding the right wing in America.
 

Basileus_Komnenos

Imperator Romanorum Βασιλεύς των Ρωμαίων
You don't have to do the exact same thing the enemy does to fight back against them. All we have to do, is actually uphold the laws and protections that are there. That is all that has needed to be done this entire time.
Problem is that the law's context/spirit is being flagrantly ignored by partisan actors to justify whatever nonsense they want. This is honestly the main problem I have with the modern day Judiciary Branch as its largely moved from being a Constitutional Check on the other branches to now overreaching on the powers of both the Executive and Legislative branches with activist judges now legislating from the bench.

Because the so called 'right' in 'murica are actually just yesterday's revolutionaries who fundamentally agree with the currently fashionable progress cultists on every moral question, they just wish the revolution would slow down a little and use different means for the same ends for reasons of unprincipled exception and aesthetic preference.
I wouldn't say this about actual conservatives, but rather the people representing them in government. Most so-called Conservative politicians basically abandon their convictions once they become entrenched in Washington as the allure of power, and the perks of lobbyists cause them to make a heel-turn.
 

Stargazer

Well-known member
Wow, this thread has blown up. Figure I'd give my two cents, seeing how I'm both a lifelong Republican and a conservative Christian. "Conservative Christian" to me, or rather "conservative Protestant", basically means that I think the Bible is the sole infallible rule of faith in the church. Christians like myself are beholden to it as the ultimate authority on matters of morality and ethics, as it is God's revelation to man of what is good and what is evil.

For me, being a Christian comes before being a Republican, and I am only a Republican because I feel that GOP policies largely fit with my Christian ethics. And I think a significant part of the political coalition that comprises the GOP are conservative Christians with the same perspective.

This matters because the fact of the matter is the Bible identifies homosexual acts as sinful, and anyone participating in such acts needs to repent (meaning admit wrongdoing and turn away from that behavior). This isn't going away. As long as there are Christians like me who take the Bible as our final authority, there will be Christians who condemn homosexuality.

The interests of the "LGBT community" are fundamentally opposed to the interests of conservative Christians, in my view. I think the government of a secular society should be very limited in "legislating morality". But there is an area the government is involved in by necessity, marriage. I don't think the government should get its nose out of marriage altogether, I think state recognized marriages are essential. Largely for the protection of the weaker spouse, whichever that is. Alimony, child custody, power of attorney in medical emergencies, tax purposes. Without state marriage licenses, what rights does a father have if the mother decides to run off with their children? So to get government out of marriage is to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

But if government is involved in marriage, and it decides to recognize marriage between people of the same sex, things get sticky. Conservative Christians don't recognize such marriages as valid, and in fact see them as fundamentally sinful. Christian business owners feel morally obligated to not participate in anything involving a same sex marriage. But same sex couples can come back and say such behavior is discriminatory - and they're right! Conservative Christians are going to want their elected representatives to stand for their religious liberty to conduct business according to their conscience. And this is just one example. As long as the GOP want to maintain the support of conservative Christians, they can't give full support to LGBT interests. Therefore, from my perspective, if the GOP is to keep conservative Christians in its coalition, it is incompatible with the LGBT community.

Levantine/Mediterranean and also a Christian. Judaism doesn’t really become Judaism till the Talmud, before that it was more so the name of a Roman province and earlier one specific state/tribe of the Hebrews/Israelites that was known as Judea. Judaism and Christianity are both religions that are offshoots of the Hebrews/Israelites that are both centered around Christ, either acceptance or rejection of him. The picture of “this is what Jesus really looked like” with him as a dark Arab doesn’t really capture the features of the people of that region much, and seeing how it was pre Arab invasion too that admixture wouldn’t be remotely as strong as it is in the region today. It’s the same weird racial propaganda as blonde haired blue eyed Nordic Jesus and black Jesus, in a thin veneer of science. There’s a misconception that the Old Testament is all about the Jews and that they are the chosen people of God that runs through evangelical Christianity which has zero basis in anything biblical.

The Judaism of Jesus' day wasn't the same thing as modern Judaism, but it's still a form of Judaism. I've seen it referred to as "Second Temple Judaism".

Jesus probably didn't look exactly like a dark skinned Arab, but he also definitely wasn't white. That said, the European tradition of depicting Jesus with European features isn't some sinister racist conspiracy. When you look at artistic depictions of Jesus throughout history, you actually find every culture depicting Jesus as one of their society. Ie, Ethiopian Christians depicting Jesus as a dark skinned African. The prevalence of "white Jesus" is an expression of how Europeans did come to be culturally dominant in the modern world. With all that said, I think it's a good thing that our modern culture is more racially aware in recognizing that Jesus likely didn't look like a white European.

Your last point about the Old Testament is pretty off base though. Yes, the Old Testament is about Abraham and his descendants being chosen by God, becoming the people of Israel, and the history of those people and prophecies regarding them. I'm curious what else you could have in mind that the Old Testament is about.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
Wow, this thread has blown up. Figure I'd give my two cents, seeing how I'm both a lifelong Republican and a conservative Christian. "Conservative Christian" to me, or rather "conservative Protestant", basically means that I think the Bible is the sole infallible rule of faith in the church. Christians like myself are beholden to it as the ultimate authority on matters of morality and ethics, as it is God's revelation to man of what is good and what is evil.

For me, being a Christian comes before being a Republican, and I am only a Republican because I feel that GOP policies largely fit with my Christian ethics. And I think a significant part of the political coalition that comprises the GOP are conservative Christians with the same perspective.

This matters because the fact of the matter is the Bible identifies homosexual acts as sinful, and anyone participating in such acts needs to repent (meaning admit wrongdoing and turn away from that behavior). This isn't going away. As long as there are Christians like me who take the Bible as our final authority, there will be Christians who condemn homosexuality.

The interests of the "LGBT community" are fundamentally opposed to the interests of conservative Christians, in my view. I think the government of a secular society should be very limited in "legislating morality". But there is an area the government is involved in by necessity, marriage. I don't think the government should get its nose out of marriage altogether, I think state recognized marriages are essential. Largely for the protection of the weaker spouse, whichever that is. Alimony, child custody, power of attorney in medical emergencies, tax purposes. Without state marriage licenses, what rights does a father have if the mother decides to run off with their children? So to get government out of marriage is to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

But if government is involved in marriage, and it decides to recognize marriage between people of the same sex, things get sticky. Conservative Christians don't recognize such marriages as valid, and in fact see them as fundamentally sinful. Christian business owners feel morally obligated to not participate in anything involving a same sex marriage. But same sex couples can come back and say such behavior is discriminatory - and they're right! Conservative Christians are going to want their elected representatives to stand for their religious liberty to conduct business according to their conscience. And this is just one example. As long as the GOP want to maintain the support of conservative Christians, they can't give full support to LGBT interests. Therefore, from my perspective, if the GOP is to keep conservative Christians in its coalition, it is incompatible with the LGBT community.
Conservative Christians will probably never vote Democrat, even if they're abandoned by the GOP. Meanwhile, every LGBT voter that doesn't vote Republican will vote Democrat. Therefore, from a purely utilitarian perspective, it makes sense to side with the latter on certain issues over the former, because it would result in a net gain of votes.
 

Stargazer

Well-known member
Conservative Christians will probably never vote Democrat, even if they're abandoned by the GOP. Meanwhile, every LGBT voter that doesn't vote Republican will vote Democrat. Therefore, from a purely utilitarian perspective, it makes sense to side with the latter on certain issues over the former, because it would result in a net gain of votes.
That may be true, from a cold political calculus point of view. But it may still be too much of a blow for the GOP. Conservative Christians may by and large never vote Democrat, but they will still vote for someone. If conservative Christians feel truly abandoned by the GOP, they may well go start a third party to better represent their interests. That would create a situation where there conservative base is essentially split, which has proven disastrous for the GOP in the past.
 

Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
Moderator
Staff Member
Comrade
Osaul
But same sex couples can come back and say such behavior is discriminatory - and they're right!
Here's the way to marry these two opposing views of allowing LGBT rights and conservative voters: Allow discrimination. It's what I believe should be legal, and to be honest, outside of the wedding industry, most businesses won't have to discriminate.
That may be true, from a cold political calculus point of view. But it may still be too much of a blow for the GOP. Conservative Christians may by and large never vote Democrat, but they will still vote for someone. If conservative Christians feel truly abandoned by the GOP, they may well go start a third party to better represent their interests. That would create a situation where there conservative base is essentially split, which has proven disastrous for the GOP in the past.
Honestly, all they have to do is not vote, and they'll make their message heard. But there's ways to get conservative christian support without alienating LGBT voters (which now are giving democrats the worst vote share since it has been tracked). Actually do something about abortion, for one (Trump did manage to defund Planned Parenthood, which was nice, but there could have been more).
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
That may be true, from a cold political calculus point of view. But it may still be too much of a blow for the GOP. Conservative Christians may by and large never vote Democrat, but they will still vote for someone. If conservative Christians feel truly abandoned by the GOP, they may well go start a third party to better represent their interests. That would create a situation where there conservative base is essentially split, which has proven disastrous for the GOP in the past.
Perhaps, but you'd be splitting the base either way. Conservative Christians, of the sort that wants the government to legislate morality, aren't exactly the most inclusive demographic.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Wow, this thread has blown up. Figure I'd give my two cents, seeing how I'm both a lifelong Republican and a conservative Christian. "Conservative Christian" to me, or rather "conservative Protestant", basically means that I think the Bible is the sole infallible rule of faith in the church. Christians like myself are beholden to it as the ultimate authority on matters of morality and ethics, as it is God's revelation to man of what is good and what is evil.

For me, being a Christian comes before being a Republican, and I am only a Republican because I feel that GOP policies largely fit with my Christian ethics. And I think a significant part of the political coalition that comprises the GOP are conservative Christians with the same perspective.

This matters because the fact of the matter is the Bible identifies homosexual acts as sinful, and anyone participating in such acts needs to repent (meaning admit wrongdoing and turn away from that behavior). This isn't going away. As long as there are Christians like me who take the Bible as our final authority, there will be Christians who condemn homosexuality.

The interests of the "LGBT community" are fundamentally opposed to the interests of conservative Christians, in my view. I think the government of a secular society should be very limited in "legislating morality". But there is an area the government is involved in by necessity, marriage. I don't think the government should get its nose out of marriage altogether, I think state recognized marriages are essential. Largely for the protection of the weaker spouse, whichever that is. Alimony, child custody, power of attorney in medical emergencies, tax purposes. Without state marriage licenses, what rights does a father have if the mother decides to run off with their children? So to get government out of marriage is to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

But if government is involved in marriage, and it decides to recognize marriage between people of the same sex, things get sticky. Conservative Christians don't recognize such marriages as valid, and in fact see them as fundamentally sinful. Christian business owners feel morally obligated to not participate in anything involving a same sex marriage. But same sex couples can come back and say such behavior is discriminatory - and they're right! Conservative Christians are going to want their elected representatives to stand for their religious liberty to conduct business according to their conscience. And this is just one example. As long as the GOP want to maintain the support of conservative Christians, they can't give full support to LGBT interests. Therefore, from my perspective, if the GOP is to keep conservative Christians in its coalition, it is incompatible with the LGBT community.



The Judaism of Jesus' day wasn't the same thing as modern Judaism, but it's still a form of Judaism. I've seen it referred to as "Second Temple Judaism".

Jesus probably didn't look exactly like a dark skinned Arab, but he also definitely wasn't white. That said, the European tradition of depicting Jesus with European features isn't some sinister racist conspiracy. When you look at artistic depictions of Jesus throughout history, you actually find every culture depicting Jesus as one of their society. Ie, Ethiopian Christians depicting Jesus as a dark skinned African. The prevalence of "white Jesus" is an expression of how Europeans did come to be culturally dominant in the modern world. With all that said, I think it's a good thing that our modern culture is more racially aware in recognizing that Jesus likely didn't look like a white European.

Your last point about the Old Testament is pretty off base though. Yes, the Old Testament is about Abraham and his descendants being chosen by God, becoming the people of Israel, and the history of those people and prophecies regarding them. I'm curious what else you could have in mind that the Old Testament is about.
That may be true, from a cold political calculus point of view. But it may still be too much of a blow for the GOP. Conservative Christians may by and large never vote Democrat, but they will still vote for someone. If conservative Christians feel truly abandoned by the GOP, they may well go start a third party to better represent their interests. That would create a situation where there conservative base is essentially split, which has proven disastrous for the GOP in the past.
If Conservative Christians cannot share a party with the LGBs, then that's their problem.

Because the Libertarian and Fiscal Conservatives have no problem with us being in the party or tent, because they know the Far-Left is driving a lot of the sane ones away from the Dems.

So you can either compromise and accept us into the party, or throw your religious tantrums and lose out of the swing voters we represent.

Master Piece Cake shop was a fucked up thing, in that they were trying to be forced to cater the wedding (not just make a cake as the narrative often says), but that does not justify going after LGBs who vote R.

You can have a functional party with a wide ranges of views represented, or you can have religious purity in the party that makes it useless on the national stage; pick one.
 

Stargazer

Well-known member
Here's the way to marry these two opposing views of allowing LGBT rights and conservative voters: Allow discrimination. It's what I believe should be legal, and to be honest, outside of the wedding industry, most businesses won't have to discriminate.

That's my thought too. It increasingly looks like religious liberty requires some level of legal discrimination. But that's going to be a hard pill for many in modern society to swallow, as taken to its logical conclusion it would undercut the Civil Rights Act itself. It's bound to mobilize the progressive left against the conservative right and divide the country even more.

Perhaps, but you'd be splitting the base either way. Conservative Christians, of the sort that wants the government to legislate morality, aren't exactly the most inclusive demographic.

I'm not talking about wanting the government to legislate morality. If anything, it's pushback against progressive morality being legislated, requiring Christians to associate with people and practices that they find to be sinful.

You can have a functional party with a wide ranges of views represented, or you can have religious purity in the party that makes it useless on the national stage; pick one.

The "national stage" is, ultimately, not my priority, as a Christian. Faithfulness to God, both in my own personal conduct, and in the policies and leaders that I support, is. That is my moral duty, and I believe that God is in control of history regardless of what party is in power.
 

Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
Moderator
Staff Member
Comrade
Osaul
That's my thought too. It increasingly looks like religious liberty requires some level of legal discrimination. But that's going to be a hard pill for many in modern society to swallow, as taken to its logical conclusion it would undercut the Civil Rights Act itself. It's bound to mobilize the progressive left against the conservative right and divide the country even more.
Yup. But most gays are more like me than the progressive left. If we get mostly left alone, we'll be happy.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
The "national stage" is, ultimately, not my priority, as a Christian. Faithfulness to God, both in my own personal conduct, and in the policies and leaders that I support, is. That is my moral duty, and I believe that God is in control of history regardless of what party is in power.
'God helps those who help themselves' is a old lines I've seen a lot of Christians spout.

Well, continuing to publicly go against the LGBs in the Right is actively NOT HELPING any of the other goals of the Right.

So you can swallow your religious issues and deal with us as equals in the tent, and get 95% of what you want politically.

Or you can watch the swing voters they represent vote third party or Dem again, in order to get the religious/ideological purity you desire.

Also, religious liberty does not supercede civic liberty, and your desire for complete religious liberty directly infringes on the civic liberites of other groups besides the LGBs, including other religions.
 

Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
Moderator
Staff Member
Comrade
Osaul
'God helps those who help themselves' is a old lines I've seen a lot of Christians spout.

Well, continuing to publicly go against the LGBs in the Right is actively NOT HELPING any of the other goals of the Right.

So you can swallow your religious issues and deal with us as equals in the tent, and get 95% of what you want politically.

Or you can watch the swing voters they represent vote third party or Dem again, in order to get the religious/ideological purity you desire.

Also, religious liberty does not supercede civic liberty, and your desire for complete religious liberty directly infringes on the civic liberites of other groups besides the LGBs, including other religions.
Being angry like this helps no one, and religious liberty and freedom of association very much trumps LGBT 'right' to purchase stuff.

The way to sell LGBT rights is by noting that LGBT rights, although sinful, means a lot less sinning in practice as has been seen in history.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Being angry like this helps no one, and religious liberty and freedom of association very much trumps LGBT 'right' to purchase stuff.

The way to sell LGBT rights is by noting that LGBT rights, although sinful, means a lot less sinning in practice as has been seen in history.
I'm not going to play their game on this; I'm not going to make this a theological argument instead of a civic and legal one.

This is a fight they have already lost, and I am not going to humor them by pretending otherwise and 'debating' the issue.
 

Stargazer

Well-known member
Yup. But most gays are more like me than the progressive left. If we get mostly left alone, we'll be happy.

I'm not sure how true that is, but I suppose we'll find out sooner or later.

'God helps those who help themselves' is a old lines I've seen a lot of Christians spout.

Well, continuing to publicly go against the LGBs in the Right is actively NOT HELPING any of the other goals of the Right.

So you can swallow your religious issues and deal with us as equals in the tent, and get 95% of what you want politically.

Or you can watch the swing voters they represent vote third party or Dem again, in order to get the religious/ideological purity you desire.

Also, religious liberty does not supercede civic liberty, and your desire for complete religious liberty directly infringes on the civic liberites of other groups besides the LGBs, including other religions.

Well it's not a line that I think is Biblically valid or that I would ever use, so 🤷‍♂️

Like I said before. I'm only a Republican because Republican policies seem to be compatible with my Christian morality and ethics. If the GOP/American right ceases to be that, they are not entitled to my support. The "goals of the right" aren't by definition something I am morally obligated to support.

My religious beliefs and practices are of the highest importance to me. If my religious liberty infringes on your "civic liberty", you're really saying the same thing I am: the two aren't politically compatible. I am going to support leaders and policies that act to preserve religious liberty.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Well it's not a line that I think is Biblically valid or that I would ever use, so 🤷‍♂️

Like I said before. I'm only a Republican because Republican policies seem to be compatible with my Christian morality and ethics. If the GOP/American right ceases to be that, they are not entitled to my support. The "goals of the right" aren't by definition something I am morally obligated to support.

My religious beliefs and practices are of the highest importance to me. If my religious liberty infringes on your "civic liberty", you're really saying the same thing I am: the two aren't politically compatible. I am going to support leaders and policies that act to preserve religious liberty.
Well at least you are being up front about the fact that the only reason we come even close to sharing a tent is because the Dems are just that crazy right now.

If the Evangelical/Conservative Christians want to form a more ideologically pure party outside of the GOP, I say do it. I'm not loyal to the GOP either, and feel the national level GOP is political controlled opposition for the Dems.

We need to cast off the two party system, and the more effective political parties their are, the harder it will be for any one group to hold too much power over the others.

If we can fracture both parties, and get 4-5 smaller, but still politically powerful parties on the other side of things, that might be best for the long term stability of the whole nation.
 

Stargazer

Well-known member
Well at least you are being up front about the fact that the only reason we come even close to sharing a tent is because the Dems are just that crazy right now.

If the Evangelical/Conservative Christians want to form a more ideologically pure party outside of the GOP, I say do it. I'm not loyal to the GOP either, and feel the national level GOP is political controlled opposition for the Dems.

We need to cast off the two party system, and the more effective political parties their are, the harder it will be for any one group to hold too much power over the others.

If we can fracture both parties, and get 4-5 smaller, but still politically powerful parties on the other side of things, that might be best for the long term stability of the whole nation.

I think there's validity to the thought that groups like right-leaning LGBs and conservative Christians would benefit from significant political restructuring in the US and the Dems and GOP fracturing into new parties, even if we don't end up in the same party.
 

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